00;00;00;00 - 00;00;28;14 Unknown Welcome back to Expert Instruction, the Teach by Design podcast, where we dive deeper into the research surrounding student behavior by talking with the people, implementing these practices, where they work and with the students they support. I'm Megan cave. I'm Danielle Triplett. Welcome back everybody. It's a new season. Welcome to 2526 school year. Yeah. It feels like summer was a mere blip. 00;00;28;21 - 00;00;58;25 Unknown Is anybody else feeling that? Like, it's like we shut our eyes to take a nap, and now it's like the alarm went off. And here we go, here we go, here we go. Danielle and I are trying our very best to hit the ground running for you all. We're going to bring in the energy today. Yes. You know, over the last couple of years, you and I have had a theme that helps to guide the topics that we select and the people that we talk to and the work that we do both over on Teach by Design in the blog and in the community of practice. 00;00;58;27 - 00;01;21;08 Unknown And so this year, we love a theme. We don't you just love a theme. We do. So this year we've got a really important theme, right? We're looking at the circles from PBIs and we we really are honing in on where we have the biggest impact at PBIs apps, which is data. Data. Yeah. It's a it's a core element. 00;01;21;08 - 00;01;45;12 Unknown It's a part of everyone who implements, PBIs, every school implementing PBIs has to focus on data at some point. And so we're going to spend the year talking about data in PBIs, not just at tier one, but at tiers two and three, and how you can make them all kind of work together. Absolutely. And we really mapped it out for the whole school year, like, like educators do out there with their backwards planning. 00;01;45;12 - 00;02;11;22 Unknown And where do we want to be at the end? And so we're really we really intentionally started at that, like foundational big picture level. And who better to tell that story than doctor Rob Horner? That's right. The briefest of introductions to our, our. I don't even know what we would call him. Our colleague, our friend, our mentor, our director, our former director, doctor Robert Horner. 00;02;11;22 - 00;02;34;27 Unknown He's an emeritus professor of special education here at the University of Oregon. So he's recently, I would say, within the last four years or so, five years retired. But he still lingers around once a professor. Yeah, exactly. His research has always focused on applied behavior analysis, positive behaviors support multi-tiered instructional systems, equity in education and systems change. 00;02;34;27 - 00;02;58;01 Unknown And there's so much really that we could say about the work that he has done over his career. But fundamentally, the reason that we had him on this podcast in particular, and intentionally is because he and his colleagues are the reason that any of us talk about PBIs and the reason why any of you use Swiss in your schools. 00;02;58;01 - 00;03;37;00 Unknown Exactly. They were really pioneers in this effort, both in, the framework around, around classroom management and PBIs, as well as these online data systems that schools can use to collect their data, but also to look at and use their data in their decision making. I found it so interesting hearing the history of that and even how when he started working with these schools, like there were not online or there was a technical way to do that, it was on paper and pencil and they were capturing it that way. 00;03;37;00 - 00;03;56;05 Unknown And here we fast forward to now, when Swiss is one platform that provides that. But there are others out there like we're not the only one doing this, but there was a time. There was a time when this was a novel concept that really tells that story. That's right. There were he had he dropped a lot of gems on these, a lot of quotes. 00;03;56;05 - 00;04;31;10 Unknown Rob is, is good for both. And, I think one of them had to do with, how using data is an act of humility. Yeah. Is one that I really I'm going to sit with and think about for a little while. And I think what he means there, or the way that I heard it is that we can all come to our schools thinking that we know the experience, we know what's happening there, and that, by even agreeing to look at data, you're agreeing to open yourself up to the possibility that maybe there's something different going on. 00;04;31;11 - 00;05;07;01 Unknown Absolutely. Well-put Megan, I agree. So that was something that really stuck with me. Yeah. You know, one of the things that I quote that I know I heard him say and I've quoted, quoted him on is PBS is really about making the smallest change that can have the biggest impact. And whether that's looking at data and saying, gosh, this feels like a big problem, but what if we just tried increasing supervision, let's say, in this area that we're experiencing these unwanted behaviors or something like that, like it's it's really, transformational because some of these problems feel so big, like, how are we going to fix this? 00;05;07;01 - 00;05;26;13 Unknown What can we do? Right. And but if you sit with that and that's your approach versus saying what, what are the few things we can do with the skills and resources that we have and try that? You know, he he shows us again and again that that's what it takes. Rob has a real passion for schools and teachers. 00;05;26;17 - 00;05;48;28 Unknown You can tell in the way that he talks that the work that he has done over his career really is meant to, support the work that adults in the building are doing. And that he's doing whatever he can to make us feel more effective, at our job so that we can do the thing that we were trained to do, which is teach. 00;05;48;28 - 00;06;11;21 Unknown Yeah. So there's all of that. Plus, you know, he knows a thing or two about data. And I think that he comes from a place where he interacts with data with such fluency that not all of us have. And the way that he's able to talk about it makes it feel like, oh, I'm using data to support what I do. 00;06;11;23 - 00;06;32;08 Unknown And to help me make my job a little easier. Right. And so when he talks about when he was talking to us about how, data just help us to ask the right questions, it really is just that we have to bring a human element to the the graphs that we look at all the time. 00;06;32;11 - 00;06;53;09 Unknown And that that's what's expected. Actually, the data aren't going to tell you, though. The decision you need to make, you have to actually be the person to look at that information and make a decision. Right. Tell that, tell that, talk about the context right, and what's going on that the data doesn't tell. Right. Rob comes to us with decades of experience. 00;06;53;11 - 00;07;10;14 Unknown He has so many insights. It was really a pleasure to have him spend some time with us. It's a longer episode, I can already tell I know where it is yet, but I can already tell it's going to be a long episode. But I don't think that there's any part of it that you're going to want to miss. 00;07;10;16 - 00;07;31;15 Unknown There's a lot of, of clever insights and real ideas that you can take with you, even if it's just to leave a little bit more inspired. Exactly. Listen in on our conversation with Doctor Robert Horner and you're going to love it. You're going to love it. Welcome back, educators. Thanks for being here, Rob. Live in person. 00;07;31;15 - 00;07;52;06 Unknown Our very first guest to be in our office and in our recording studio. Well, I'm delighted to be here. I know it was. It's a good it's a good episode to have this first in-person guest. It's nice to have the new school year. It's this. This may be your studio, but. Yeah, this particular room. Yeah, it was actually an office that we had 35 years ago. 00;07;52;07 - 00;08;13;07 Unknown Amazing, really. How many people did you cram into this space? This space was three offices. Yeah. Oh, wow. Okay, okay. Yeah. It's now one big room. That's all it is. And I think we've had several people in it since then, but over the years here. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yes. It's how it works on college campuses. Right. You have to repurpose spaces for you. 00;08;13;07 - 00;08;34;08 Unknown Can things shift over time? But it's a it's a huge recording space for the work we do. Well I would say welcome back. But you still come around. The office is Doctor Horner, doctor Rob Horner. He is here with us today as our special guest. And, used to be our the director here, at Educational and Community supports the department where PBIs apps is housed. 00;08;34;11 - 00;08;53;08 Unknown So I would say welcome back. But you're still around. You float around here and there. Well, absolutely. It's a hard place to leave. It's interesting happening I think so I think so. And like once you're once you're in it it's hard to get out I think. So that's a nice thing to say. It's true though I agree. 00;08;53;08 - 00;09;20;15 Unknown I'll celebrate my 10th anniversary being in our research unit, this month. Yeah. How long have you been here, Megan? I started as a temp back in 2004. Wow. You'll believe. Okay. Crazy. Two decades. Yeah. Like. Yeah, I think out. My hire date was March 20th, 2005. Okay. Yeah. 20 years for graduation, 20 entire years. I've done several things here, but I've been here a few times. 00;09;20;15 - 00;09;45;14 Unknown Yeah, I actually went to Megan's wedding. It's true. You really Rob. Oh, my gosh, that's. So this is a little incestuous. No. Okay, let's dive into the question. Oh my God. Hilarious. So, so for the year, we're kicking this off. This our first episode for the, 2526 school year. And this school year, we're really focused on the data element of PBIs. 00;09;45;14 - 00;10;11;06 Unknown And so we really wanted as a research unit, as an organization, we really wanted to play pay special attention to that particular element of our framework, because it's one that we hold near and dear to our hearts as a group. And so who better to kick us off for sure than doctor Rob Horner? So at some point, Rob, we have to just kind of start way back at the beginning, not so far back. 00;10;11;06 - 00;10;30;07 Unknown I mean, you're a youthful man not so far back. But at some point in your career, PBIs became an idea in your mind. And we were just really curious about, like, when did that start to take shape? Why did it take shape? Did you think that there was something missing and you were trying to fill a gap? 00;10;30;14 - 00;10;50;27 Unknown How did all of that happen? And when you know, it's a great question and you you sent me that question a few days ago. Yeah. I thought, well, I've never really thought about it quite that way. First off, yeah, I don't think PBIs as a framework or an entity. Yeah. Was the thing that we started off with. 00;10;50;29 - 00;11;25;03 Unknown Right. Second is no one person is really responsible for PBIs. That's true for George Sagi. Come in the way Jeff Colvin, even Engelman and West Becker were involved in ideas around the whole big concept. Yeah. Yeah. Right. The way that PBIs really got started, was because we were really committed to working with the schools, in the Eugene area, we would go to schools and we would say, look, we're doing research, but what we really want to do are things are going to be helpful to you. 00;11;25;06 - 00;11;51;09 Unknown So the bottom line question is, really, how do you make schools more effective learning environments. Sure. Yeah. And not just for a few kids, but for everybody. And most of us have been in schools as teachers or as, administrators or assistants. So we came to this with a sense of, the practical elements of what do you really need to do? 00;11;51;09 - 00;12;39;24 Unknown And how does that work? One of the messages that we got that was just, heartbreaking was this message that kids are engaging in behaviors that are not just detrimental and a real barrier for them, but they're things that interrupt education for everybody. Sure. Hitting, kicking, spitting, biting, throwing, screaming, tantrums, even withdrawal. Running away from teachers. I have to tell you, I just have immense compassion for talking with teachers about how committed they are to doing a good job, and how frustrated they were with their lack of success with kids who were engaging in problem behaviors. 00;12;39;25 - 00;13;01;16 Unknown Yeah. And so what George and I really started doing is we said, hey this, this is we actually know what to do. Right. And, and so we would go in and they would say here's Philip or here's, you know, Dolores and they would tell us what she did. And they would, they would tell us how unhappy they were. 00;13;01;21 - 00;13;25;28 Unknown Yeah, she did and we would listen and we would say, hey, come over here. We can actually work with this. That's right. And and so we would build a behavior plan and the behavior plan would go into place and the kid would get better. The teacher would feel much stronger. And, and the great part was the student didn't just stop doing things that were appropriate. 00;13;26;01 - 00;13;51;29 Unknown They started doing things that were more functional and successful. All right. So that was just heady times. I mean, we can actually make a difference. Yeah. The problem was there were more of those kids than there were of us. You were outnumbered. And and the other part was that we would work with a kid in Springfield. 00;13;52;01 - 00;14;21;20 Unknown And we would see her in fourth grade and she'd be doing great. Just great. And then all heck would break loose in sixth grade and we were back to where we started. So really George's real epiphany was this whole idea of yes we can do individual behavior supports, but we're not really going to make a difference in the world unless we can change the whole school totally system. 00;14;21;20 - 00;14;52;19 Unknown So that the idea was the two big, really big ideas invest before they make mistakes. So be preventive. Yes. And build a whole culture of the school. Not just repairing individual behavior problem situations, but really looking and saying, all right, if the kids are going to be successful, it's not just obeying teachers, it's interacting successfully with each other. 00;14;52;21 - 00;15;19;17 Unknown I mean, a little bit of humility is good here in education, the kids learn as much from each other as they do from us. So we need to make that a process that is constructive, not a process that is either neutral or detrimental. So that's what really led to our are looking at the whole problem differently. Then the thing that I love about your you're using the term framework. 00;15;19;17 - 00;15;49;09 Unknown Yeah. Is PBIs is not like a package. You don't. Right. You don't go to PBIs in a box. Yeah. It is a set of core features that are used in slightly different ways in urban schools and rural schools, in little schools, in, in different ways. You can pull things together. I mean, just the the idea of identifying a set of behavioral expectations sounds pretty straightforward. 00;15;49;11 - 00;16;14;24 Unknown And you you go online, you look in the website and be respectful, be responsible, save with a little personal icon. Yeah. You say, but realistically when when I went to New Mexico and we were working with schools that were primarily getting kids from the reservation. That's right. I gave my rap about PBIs and defining and teaching behavioral expectations. 00;16;14;24 - 00;16;36;10 Unknown And this, this one, just very gentle guy came up and patted me on the back, you know, overdressed white guy. Oh, this is really great. Yeah, but we've been doing this for 400 years. Yeah. And we don't talk about being respectful and responsible as well. What do you talk about? He said being brave and being honorable. I said great. 00;16;36;10 - 00;16;59;08 Unknown We can work with that. Yeah, totally. You know, tell me what it looks like in the hallway. That's right. Tell me what it looks like on the playground. Yeah. Tell me what it does not look like. And so the framework, the idea of a framework allows you to make it fit the local culture. It doesn't make people sort of focus in on it has to be the way that they. 00;16;59;10 - 00;17;36;06 Unknown Page 39. Yeah. Right. The, the trick though is to build a framework that is flexible where it needs to be flexible but very clear about core features. So there are core features to parents house, it turns out. Yeah there are, there are. And the the reason why it's so great to be focusing on data. Yeah. Is it wasn't that PBS identified data, it was more that data identified the core features of PBIs. 00;17;36;06 - 00;18;09;25 Unknown Oh, say what you mean, right? Yeah. Tell us more. We learned what to focus on by watching what the kids did, where they did it, and how they did it. We learned, I mean, when we started off, we had lots of things that we wanted schools to do. Yeah. Well, what we learn by using fidelity data with teachers, by looking at the, behavior of students on playgrounds, in cafeterias and how that's different in the classroom. 00;18;09;28 - 00;18;35;18 Unknown We learned what's the smallest number of features that's really necessary? That's right. Because all of the elements of PBIs are not equal. There are some that are absolutely essential, and there are about 6 or 8 that really account for 80% of the variance of kids that, that said differently, there's there are a small number that make the biggest difference. 00;18;35;18 - 00;19;05;08 Unknown Yeah. There are other things that you can do that, that are happy, but it is it was the it was watching the data from the schools that were implement, that we learned how to become more efficient, that we learned what were the things that resonated with the students and the families, not just the teachers. And so, in many ways, the emergence of PBIs came from problem solving. 00;19;05;10 - 00;19;22;17 Unknown It wasn't that we started with PBIs, and then we put them in schools. We started with schools and PBIs emerged. Yeah. Did you always know that data was going to be an element of this work that you were doing? I mean, as a researcher, certainly it would make sense, but you need to that's part of what you do as researcher. 00;19;22;17 - 00;19;40;24 Unknown Right? You've got to have some data. You've got to collect that. You want to show over time. You have to do things so that you would introduce that concept as part of the framework that schools would be implementing, that they would need to collect and monitor their own data. The collection and monitoring of data is an act of humility. 00;19;40;27 - 00;20;07;22 Unknown Oh, it's only if you think you actually know it all. That you don't need data. Yeah, right. I've got a friend who gave me a t shirt that says, without data, you're just another person with an opinion. I mean, it's kind of true, but the the thing that having. So think about it this way, data is basically information. 00;20;07;27 - 00;20;35;11 Unknown Sure. And it we're not really I mean, we love and we put a lot of pressure and emphasis on collecting data. But the data are a step to an outcome, not the outcome itself. That's. We we want to build decision systems more than data systems want to build problem solving. Not the collection in celebration of graphs. 00;20;35;11 - 00;21;06;10 Unknown Right. And the, the difference is the reason why I'm saying the collection and use of data is an act of humility is because everybody has their own experience for how this works. I mean, if you think about mean, think about your own children. Right. And you think about what you, you, you got living experience. Yeah. That tells you this is what works and this is how things operate. 00;21;06;12 - 00;21;37;10 Unknown And that's incredibly important. There's no one should ever denigrate that. Right. But if you're going to work as a group it's very hard to have all of those individual experiences of how things work. Come together. And part of what we found is that collecting data, the very first thing that it does is it builds a coherent common vision for what are we doing. 00;21;37;16 - 00;22;01;27 Unknown So think about I mean y'all, Daniel, you've been in schools where you have seen the teachers just incredibly frustrated. Totally. And and you say, well, what is happening? They just tell you, let me tell you what those reprehensible young people not doing. Thanks for asking. Exactly. And and you just feel their frustration. Right. But then I've seen you do it. 00;22;01;27 - 00;22;23;28 Unknown You are such a good therapist. You, you listen well and you and you make people feel that. That's okay. Yeah. And then you say okay that's sweet. But now tell me exactly what they do here. Do they do it? When do they not do it. So one of the biggest questions is not just what are they doing, but when do they not do those behaviors. 00;22;23;28 - 00;22;50;15 Unknown And and we'll find out. They are absolutely out of control in the cafeteria and in the recess. Yeah, but they're brilliant in class or like in band class or something you're passionate about. And they get to express themselves. Right. And we hear this all the time. So one of the great things is you can just by doing that, you can help people say, it's not clearly it's not the kids, right? 00;22;50;15 - 00;23;23;28 Unknown Because they're, they're they can be they're capable. So instead of changing them we need to change what we really can change the context. And and think about, think about getting a group of people to the point about saying this is not about finding the drug. That will make them all better. It's rather figuring out why things are working so well in classrooms and so horribly in cafeteria in recess. 00;23;24;00 - 00;23;49;19 Unknown And the thing that I love is if you can get a group of well-meaning, intelligent educators together and have them ask the right question, they will give you the answer. This is this is not people from the university or from PBIs world coming in and saying we have the answer, right? Yeah. They're doing it for themselves. 00;23;49;19 - 00;24;10;21 Unknown If you if you collect the right data, it allows you to say, well what's the difference in classroom. We tell them this is what's expected. Have we ever told them what's expected in the cafeteria and the recess. And the answer is well no. We expect their parents to do that or expect their brother to do. 00;24;10;27 - 00;24;31;08 Unknown Well. They, you know they miss the mark. They do that. Yeah. So. Well what do you think. Maybe we should tell them what is really expected. Right. And if they are doing what's expected, are they getting recognized for doing that. Because if you do it and get recognized you get better at it. If you do it nobody says anything. 00;24;31;08 - 00;25;08;10 Unknown Then you you know, maybe do it, maybe don't. Right. Yeah. And, and then the other part is really to stop and say these behaviors are not due to internal demons. These behaviors, these behaviors don't keep happening, unless at some point they get something they want or avoid something they don't want. So, so when you watch aggression on the playground, when you watch throwing of food and tantrum and fighting in the cafeteria, what are they getting. 00;25;08;12 - 00;25;32;03 Unknown And how can we make sure that rather than doing some punishment that makes it feel bad. But there's almost no effect on the behavior. What we're going to do is say cowboy that is not what the expected behavior is. This is what's expected. And how are we going to prevent those behaviors from being rewarded. Yeah evidently. 00;25;32;07 - 00;25;58;22 Unknown Yeah. Well that sounds commonsensical sure. But it's really hard to do. So what we learned is we could have George Sagi go and talk to schools, and everybody loved George. Yeah, right. And so George would say, this is what you should do, but we just can't send George. There's 100,000 schools. Yeah. So he'd be busy. He'd be busy. 00;25;58;25 - 00;26;24;06 Unknown So we had to come up with something better. And it turns out if we get people to agree on the data, and if we, if we help them to use the data to ask the right questions. The just fascinating thing is a group that is just grumpy and unhappy transforms into a group that is effective problem solvers. 00;26;24;08 - 00;26;50;09 Unknown They come up with action plans, they actually implement things and it makes a difference. They the staff of the school make the school a more effective learning environment. Yeah. And they, they take kids who are themselves unhappy, not just behaving badly but are unhappy. And they, they make those kids proud of themselves because the kids walk around. 00;26;50;09 - 00;27;09;10 Unknown I mean you just see it in actual body language. Totally. You know. I know, I know how to do this. Yeah. And it's quite a, it's quite a thing to hear a kid say that they're proud about their school and they talk about it and yeah, they love it. It's that you can tell, you know, when they got into to the culture of that place. 00;27;09;10 - 00;27;30;24 Unknown Well, that's why we go into this field of education. Teachers do not go into the field to punish kids, to manage behaviors, you know, to to do these things. We want to affect change in young people and see them be successful, see them become shining stars and shine bright in band or traffic or in the cafeteria. Dance all of the things and be their best selves. 00;27;30;24 - 00;27;54;26 Unknown Right? So that's right. Yeah. That's right. You talk about, adults being able to like, really look at information and make some decisions and how data can be this equalizer. And it, it really does highlight, especially when we're talking about referrals. It brings to the surface what everyone's experience is. As an adult in the school, I saw this behavior. 00;27;54;26 - 00;28;13;16 Unknown This is what I did. And so now everybody knows and we can like move from there. And I've seen it too in the way that you in our years ago in our facilitator trainings, teaching on the third day of the training, when they were in person back in the day, I was one of those people at the Phoenix in conference room. 00;28;13;17 - 00;28;46;26 Unknown I stay there, and you would share with them the graphs, right? We would start in one place and move our way through to create what eventually would be, we would call these precision statements and, and how quickly people would be able to start to look at those data and immediately have something to say about them. It would kind of start in this place where people were like, unsure about, like where and going with this whole talk and okay, and then, by the end of it, though, you were showing them one graph of like, here's a location graph and what do you know about this? 00;28;46;26 - 00;29;05;13 Unknown And they would have something to say, and then you would change it and, or you would show the average referrals per day, per month. And you would show one version of it, and then you would show another one. And this was all within like 30, 45 seconds. And people were instantly able to see new things and have new ideas about what they would ask next. 00;29;05;15 - 00;29;31;17 Unknown And so something that Danielle and I were thinking about is in those earlier days of PBIs and going, we know that you went to a school for an item for an Rej. Was it Fern Ridge Elementary? Is that middle school? Middle school? Okay. Great. Shout out to them. We actually met a woman who was at that school at a conference recently, and she came up to our booth and was like, I used to work at Fern Ridge. 00;29;31;17 - 00;29;54;27 Unknown Oh, really? It was great. Anyway, so what we were curious about is like, so you knew that data was going to be an element of this framework, and you were going to introduce it as part of a problem solving process. And so in those earlier days, we've talked about it a little bit. We've told a little bit of your story, on our podcast before, where you would show up to the meeting with a graph and they would say, that's really cute. 00;29;54;29 - 00;30;18;18 Unknown And then you could tell us that version of the story. That would be great. And what that overall what you learned in those early days with that, with those first teams, and how it evolved and when you anticipated the problem solving process would be within the framework. The early parts of working with Fern Ridge were this fascinating? 00;30;18;21 - 00;30;47;18 Unknown Yeah. Principal Susan Taylor Green was just, a wonderful leader. Yeah. She was enthusiastic. She was clear. She gave people the resource is. But she also gave them room to try things out and struggle. So I became part of their behavior support team. And initially I just went to the meetings. I mean, I was, I was, I was a member of the team. 00;30;47;20 - 00;31;27;16 Unknown Yeah. And that was when we were early in the process of collecting Swift data. And we were just absolutely convinced that collecting data, not just on how often they did something bad, but who it was, where, when I, who what where when I, how often. Yeah, that came from that, sort of process. The interesting thing is, as with most school personnel, they had learned that data were really something that we were forced to collect, right. 00;31;27;19 - 00;32;00;04 Unknown And give only to administrators who sent them to the district office, right. Never to be seen again. Right. Yeah. And one of the things that we knew is you never ask someone to collect data unless they see it being used within three months. So it's a good rule. Well so within a three month period if you want me to, if you want me to struggle and collect data and show me that the time and effort I'm putting in is making a difference, right. 00;32;00;04 - 00;32;21;26 Unknown Absolutely. And so what they would do is they would they would fill out their office discipline, referral forms. And, and I would take them. And then we actually actually I personally didn't if you had a research assistant who were, who were very dear to me, did. Yeah. And they would add them up and put them in graphs. 00;32;21;27 - 00;32;47;28 Unknown Right. Yeah. Great. I would take those graphs back to Firm Ridge. And and we would, we would always start with what's the problem. And the problem always started with this behavior is it's not good. Right. And so I said let's define the problem differently. Right. Let's talk about where when why how often. How many. 00;32;48;00 - 00;33;05;16 Unknown I mean in a middle school I mean if you've been in middle schools at all. Oh you know that 3 to 5 kids can destabilize the social culture of the middle school. I mean they're very powerful. It is you 12 to 14 year old kids. Well, and they're so based on what the peers are doing, they're so susceptible to that. 00;33;05;16 - 00;33;25;12 Unknown And. Yeah, so and especially now when, when you've got social media. Oh yeah. I was it is even a smaller number can even have a larger impact, which is not a good thing for the most part. That's right. Part of what part of what we taught them was be careful. Just because kids are behaving badly doesn't mean you always do the same thing. 00;33;25;14 - 00;33;52;20 Unknown If you've got five kids who are doing stuff let's target support for those 3 to 5 kids. Yeah. If you've got 47. Yeah. Then we've got to back up and we've got to train everybody. Sure. We have a big problem. Yeah a little problem. And so we had both of those, we, we had some places where we had a little problem, some places where we, they, the kids were confused about what was okay. 00;33;52;21 - 00;34;21;02 Unknown Yeah. Right. And, and when they're confused then I mean again middle school is the greatest. Middle school is the time when you want to get as close to the line of what is acceptable, very possibly can get. Right. And I just love the fact when we first went to Fern Ridge, they had a, they had a manual of student conduct, and it has 67 things that you were not to do. 00;34;21;03 - 00;34;38;17 Unknown Yep. You were not to do this. And you are not to do that, and you were not to do them. And they were they had really worked hard on building that. And I said, you know, how many kids know what these are? Yeah. And I went up. And they knew a couple of sure. The big. Yeah. They knew the big ones. 00;34;38;18 - 00;35;07;11 Unknown Right. Yeah. They didn't. And so I said you know it's going to be a whole lot easier if we teach them what to do. Yes. Yeah. And so let's come up with what to do. And rather than walking around being policemen, let's walk around recognizing and acknowledging doing it the right way. Yes. And and it is so much more fun to be focused on doing an acknowledging and teach proactively. 00;35;07;13 - 00;35;32;27 Unknown Yeah. And the other thing that really was a difference was the way it changed how students interacted with each other. And it at the there was one elementary school that I think K-5. And they would have the first and third, fourth and then they had the second grade and fifth grade up together. And so they, they would have recess. 00;35;32;28 - 00;35;53;23 Unknown Okay. Right. So they had this recess in the second grade, and fifth graders were out and and they had their rules were. Be respectful, be responsible, be safe. Being safe on the playground meant going down the slide, not up the slide. Okay. That was one of the examples. Yeah. Lots of schools have that same rule. I think everybody knows that. 00;35;53;24 - 00;36;19;21 Unknown Right. So I'm out there with the vice principal. We're walking around at recess, and I'm making suggestions about how we organize recess. And there's this one little third grader and he starts going up the slide. Okay. And the principal's eyes light up. But two fifth graders were walking by. And one of them says hey be safe. 00;36;19;23 - 00;36;43;05 Unknown Really. And the third grader stopped and got off the slide. Oh my gosh. Because he knew. Yeah. That they knew, that he knew what he was supposed to be doing. And because they defined it and taught it, they all knew it. Yes. So did you just light up? I bet you were right. Oh my goodness. 00;36;43;08 - 00;37;15;29 Unknown Just like. The. The great thing is that principal. Yeah. Told that story for the next. I bet they did. Right. You know, and the idea that this is not controlling the children, it's really empowering. And when you are, when you are so unhappy about what they're doing that's not good. And you're just using punishers and restrictions meaning I'm just I'm going to send you to the office and I'm going to suspend you. 00;37;16;01 - 00;37;42;14 Unknown Spell you and we're going to just think bad things about you. Doesn't that, that is not constructive for anybody. It's not good for the adults as well as good for the kids. When you build a social culture, a social culture exists. When there's a group of people who all understand a common set of language, of expectations, of the way that it works. 00;37;42;17 - 00;38;01;13 Unknown Everybody has agreed this is the way that it works in a school all by itself can build its own social culture. And you know you've done that. Not when the kids can fill out a form that says here are the behavioral expectations. Right. You know, you've done that when you watch how they interact with each other, with each other. 00;38;01;18 - 00;38;19;14 Unknown So 100%. That and the way you get to that is by looking at the data. Yeah. So you said that the team was more accustomed to having data be an accountability thing that they would send away. Yep. So how did you overcome that or how did you help them to reframe it. Just by sharing it. 00;38;19;15 - 00;38;34;04 Unknown Yep. Like you would go into those graphs produced bring them and I would bring them with the, the way that we did. It was basically not by saying I want you to admire the data. I did it by saying what's the problem you want to deal with? I got you. Okay. So let's, let's talk about the problem. 00;38;34;06 - 00;39;03;13 Unknown And we've got this. This particular child. Okay. Let's do an individual intervention. I got have this group of girls. Great. How do we deal with that. And in each case, one of the most important things is data can be overwhelming. And and the problem behaviors of kids in schools can be overwhelming. This is a way in which you've got to make it feel manageable right. 00;39;03;14 - 00;39;35;19 Unknown You can bring it back and say we actually can be clear and be specific. So we can use the data to take a giant overwhelming problem and make it logical and prescriptive and specific. Remember, the biggest thing that data do for a team is to get them to ask the right question of themselves. If they say why is this group of girls doing this behavior. 00;39;35;21 - 00;39;54;20 Unknown And why do they do it here and not there. Then it turns out they know the answer to that. You don't you don't know it as an outsider. No. They know it because they're there. They know those students. They know the study. They know what's happened last week. All the things the context. So. The thing that I loved most. 00;39;54;28 - 00;40;22;26 Unknown The reason why friend Ridge really blossomed. Yeah. Was because they became much more effective themselves. Yeah. It wasn't that they did what we told them to do. Right. It's that they they learned a process and they were they were incredibly to be credited for being open to trying something. Yeah. No kidding. Yeah. And but within within a two year period after we, we taught all the behavioral expectations. 00;40;22;26 - 00;40;48;16 Unknown We had the reward system, we had the data system. I mean, they reduced problem behaviors by 58%. And more than that, they reduced serious problem behaviors at an even greater rate. Yeah. So the teachers, the teachers we're talking about being able to teach, they were. They were a gift. They weren't being imagined behavior managers. That's right. 00;40;48;18 - 00;41;14;19 Unknown And we don't want teachers to have the feeling that PBIs means all I do is behavior management. We want them to have the sense that when you implement PBIs that's when you really are able to do excellent teaching. Right. Yeah. That's when we get into being our great language arts teachers and doing our poetry unit. You know I'm drawing on my own experience of the stuff I wanted to do, but spent so much of your time just managing when I was at a school that didn't have PBIs for sure. 00;41;14;25 - 00;41;37;23 Unknown Different. Your poetry is all about problem behavior. When someone shows you a graph, are there questions that you always ask? Yes. So the first question is what's the decision you want to make? Yeah. What is I mean, a graph is just a graph and it's got data. Cute. That's what you would say. I can hear you saying, that's cute. 00;41;37;25 - 00;42;02;09 Unknown That's cute. Well, the other thing is, the reason to ask that question is you will never have all the data that you want. I mean think of that. It has of behavior support right. We want to be positive. Well here you are. Come on Megan you're here. You are counting problem behaviors. How is that being positive. Right. 00;42;02;14 - 00;42;29;16 Unknown That's right. And when. So part of part of that whole process was realizing that if we focus first on how are we going to help kids to be more successful? Right. What is really. We got to define the problem with precision. What? Who? Where? When? Why? How often? Then we've got to do more than that. We've got to think about how does that fit given the kids that we're working with. 00;42;29;23 - 00;42;55;12 Unknown Right. I worked with a school in San Francisco where the kids were mostly from, Somalia, and they had a different set of rules about violent behavior and in Los Angeles, when we first started working with us, Angeles and we went down, we're talking about being responsible and respectful. And they said, oh, come on, man, you do not talk about being respectful because that's a gang term. 00;42;55;12 - 00;43;22;07 Unknown And yet people people mandate respect through violence. And so I said well great. So let's use a different. What's another word. Yeah. You can talk about being kind. You can talk about being considerate. You're so so in part. Okay. We're trapped by the laws of efficiency. If we really were to say what's the data that we need to make a good decision. 00;43;22;09 - 00;43;45;18 Unknown One of the things we'd want to say is we want to know a count of what they do correctly. Yeah. We want the positives. And early on in PBIs we had an elementary school in in for Jay here in Eugene. And I, I got them to come together and I got the playground supervisors to count. 00;43;45;20 - 00;44;06;28 Unknown Right. We taught being respectful and responsible. Kind of being helpful. We taught these skills. And so I was, I was and this was before we had Swiss. We had. So I had these all three by five cards. And I had taught the playground supervisors to keep track of who was doing quite well. Yeah. And I thought I have a great son. 00;44;06;28 - 00;44;26;29 Unknown You're not here. You've got on the one side who is hitting, kicking, spitting, biting, throwing. Yeah. And this is the number of times that somebody is being helpful. Somebody is being kind of a friend. Somebody is sharing. I just thought this is just so great really. And and so they started doing this in about three days. 00;44;27;00 - 00;44;54;18 Unknown And I got a call from the principal like I got called to the principal's office. Oh. And they said this is killing us. This is the amount the amount of information is just too much for three by five cards to me. And and they did it so gently and so kindly. But it was really a message of. Listen, you stupid person from the university. 00;44;54;21 - 00;45;21;23 Unknown Oh, this has got to be practical, right? Yes. What did I I really struggled with that because I really thought that, almost from a, moral or legitimate perspective, if we were about positive behavior, we needed to build data systems for positive behavior. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Collecting all the negative things seems. Seems to. Yes. It seems like we're focused. 00;45;21;23 - 00;45;45;27 Unknown We're focusing on the wrong thing. Yeah. All right. But, they convinced me that efficiency. It has to be practical. Normal humans must be able to do this right accurately and easily. And if you make it too hard nobody believes the data. If, if the, if it's easy to do and they see the data used every three months. 00;45;45;29 - 00;46;19;17 Unknown The data become accurate. If they think the data are just being given to the administration for unrelated purposes. Right. The data does become unrelated to what it's actually doing. Yeah. So part of what we learn is we learn that we'll never have enough information to make an ironclad decision. We're always going to be making decisions with a little bit less information than we wanted. 00;46;19;20 - 00;46;44;24 Unknown So your job my job, our job is to give people the right information at the right time in the right form. So that then they can use their personal experience to make it fit for decisions in situation. If they only rely on their personal experience. Then they come up with disjointed odd things. 00;46;44;27 - 00;47;05;24 Unknown Work for Mary Lou but not for Eric. Right. They don't they don't make us a school. Individual teachers have forever been coming up with what works for them. Yeah. In their room with their kids. But if you're especially in a middle school where you go from teacher to teacher. It could be you know schizophrenic. Yeah. 00;47;05;28 - 00;47;26;19 Unknown Yeah. Whoa. Yeah. I can do this in Mr. Jones. Not in Miss Elliot's. Exactly. Oh, yeah. And and the kids figure that stuff out. They really do. And yet it really undermines. It undermines our ability to say, look, we're a whole school. Yeah. So part of part of it was using the data to say what's really important. 00;47;26;21 - 00;47;50;23 Unknown Getting everybody in the school to agree to a common picture. Of what are we trying to solve. If the data help to get the, the first the team and then the whole faculty. To agree. This is what we're working on. You've already made half the gain. Right. Once you've got there then. Now this is the problem we're solving. 00;47;50;25 - 00;48;15;14 Unknown Too often school teams are made up of seven or 8 or 10 people. Yeah. Yeah. Who are talking in one meeting. But when you actually listen to it, when you listen to their podcast. Right. It sounds like their meeting. It sounds like they're solving different problems. Right? And they're each solving it from their perspective of the elephant. But they're not they're not agreeing. 00;48;15;16 - 00;48;40;24 Unknown Data help you to first agree. What's the problem we're working on. Gotcha. Data help you to then come up to say what's the smallest change that a normal human can do. That'll make a real difference with the kid. Data tell you. Are we actually doing what we said we would do. Yes. Data tell you. Did it work. 00;48;40;27 - 00;49;07;19 Unknown And think about then walking into the faculty meeting. And saying hey you. You ready. Last month you know we had 27 office discipline referrals. That's compared to 198 the month before. Wow. Yeah. This is what you did. This is the difference it's making. Now one of those 27 was not a good thing. And we're working on that. 00;49;07;20 - 00;49;27;26 Unknown Yeah. Okay. So Mary Lou don't don't don't don't don't don't get to. We'll get to that. Yeah. But I want you to think about what that does for a faculty. You do have a sense of oh my goodness these these people are listening when we say we have a problem. They're actually using the information. And so that's where we came up with. 00;49;28;03 - 00;49;49;08 Unknown That's what guided the design of Suess. Yeah. And and so if you look at Suess. Yeah. It it is designed to start with a big picture. Do we really have a problem. Right. Don't don't go straight down to how many of everything has everybody ever done. Right. We want to start with do we actually have a problem. 00;49;49;08 - 00;50;08;19 Unknown Right. And then then define the problem with enough precision that you see is a lot of people is it a few people. Is it in all places. Is it in some places. Is it all in the morning. Only in the afternoon. Is it done to get attention. Is it done to avoid either social issues or academic issues. 00;50;08;21 - 00;50;51;10 Unknown What, what is it done to what appears to be the most common. Maintaining reward. Once you've got that then it becomes manageable. Right. And and you think we can actually change that. Sure. And and we don't have to buy a $30,000, you know, box and get nine years of training. Yeah. We can fix this ourselves. And so of all the things that I'm most proud of, it's the extent to which the data systems that we've taught people to use have made them more effective. 00;50;51;12 - 00;51;20;10 Unknown I agree. I absolutely and it was so innovative when you first came up with it. Like Swiss was, there wasn't another thing that was like it. And now you look at the marketplace. And there's lots of, of systems that are trying to do the same thing. But what's built into the applications that you helped to create is this process of like accurate data. 00;51;20;10 - 00;51;51;19 Unknown Consistent data. And with the thought that someone is going to share it regularly. So there's something about it that's just a little bit different. It was so innovative at the time and I think continues to be in some ways. Which is really exciting. Yes. Well, I remember when Daniel came to ECS. Really? Yep. And one of the, one of the things that was so, exciting about your joining him was you had been successful at helping people use data. 00;51;51;23 - 00;52;18;10 Unknown Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. You actually, you and people didn't say, oh, she helps us use the data. They, they talk when we do our job. Well people don't talk about it. They talk about what they have done. Right. Yeah. That's what coaching is, right. Yes. And the the interesting thing though, you got to be careful that people don't think they're done. 00;52;18;12 - 00;52;40;07 Unknown Okay. We can stop. We can, we can stop stop collecting data. Right. You need you need regularly to say how are we doing. How are the kids doing. And one of the big things is are we doing what we said we would do. People say oh well we're implementing PBI. Yes. But are you. And we say great. 00;52;40;09 - 00;53;05;04 Unknown You know what's your TFI score. Yeah. And it's not an intention or a belief or a desire. It's whether you've established the core features of positive behavior support. If you've done that you can call it whatever you want. And making your point about the other data systems that have developed it is wonderful. Yeah. I mean this is not a competition. 00;53;05;08 - 00;53;30;07 Unknown No this is, this is the we want people to use what works for them. The one, the one thing that I would keep coming back to though, there are too many situations where people think because they bought an implemented the data system they're done. Yeah. Right. Don't build data systems, build decision systems, build problem solving systems. 00;53;30;09 - 00;53;54;14 Unknown So the data are just one source of information that allows a group of people to make decisions that are more practical and more effective and more efficient. Yes. I bet someone we've talked a little bit about the different that this framework has made in the schools that you've worked with and what you've seen in the field. 00;53;54;15 - 00;54;25;02 Unknown Have there have been times I would, I would imagine there have been times in your career where you've gone to talk to somebody about implementing PBIs, and they said, that's a bunch of malarkey. No thank you. Have you seen any change in in people who have that perspective over the course of time? You know, in implementing and looking at data and seeing the difference and being like, okay, maybe there was something to this whole thing. 00;54;25;05 - 00;55;09;23 Unknown We all have our personal journeys. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. And and experiences in education. Right? Yeah. And there are there are many people who find the behavioral foundation of PBIs challenging. Yeah. Because usually they have mis information about the mechanistic view. Behavior analysis. As being a strategy for controlling people. Manipulating. Right. Instead the the behavioral perspective is really one of saying understand the context that a child is experiencing. 00;55;09;24 - 00;55;38;15 Unknown Sure. Understand. And with kids with disabilities they may be coming with different physiological expectations, may be coming from different contexts where they've learned things that worked in that context that don't work in the new context. So in in many ways, I would say first off, yes. Yeah. We get lots of, you know, like, no thanks, but no thanks. 00;55;38;17 - 00;56;05;00 Unknown No. You're at the cross and saying yeah. No thank you. Go, go to the person. The answer over time. Yeah. Is if you're in a district that has 32 schools and you say our school is definitely not going to do that. Yeah. And 15 of the other schools say they are. Yeah. And two years later those 15 schools have a quarter of the office referrals. 00;56;05;03 - 00;56;32;29 Unknown And their kids have a much greater percentage of their kids who are reading at proficiency. Then the question comes back well what are you going to do. Right. I was, I gave a presentation once in California to a team that was working in a district. And a woman came up and she said, you know, I really believe in a different approach to doing this. 00;56;33;02 - 00;57;02;00 Unknown And my response was to say, you know, if you are happy with how the kids are behaving. Don't change. If they are doing things just fine. Don't change. Yeah. Why would you. Right. But if you, if you are unhappy with what they're doing. Don't expect them to change if you don't. So lately. And so if you're saying we're going to change if you don't want to do PBIs that's fine. 00;57;02;02 - 00;57;31;11 Unknown But think about the features. Of an environment that it's going to be successful. And PBIs is not a religion. No it is not a cult. It's the smallest number of core things that you can do that are empirically validated to make schools more effective learning in terms. And that's all. And it's so simple. If you can come up with something that's better, faster and cheaper. 00;57;31;13 - 00;57;57;05 Unknown We are for it. You do. Yeah. You know. Sweetheart, you got to show us that you actually do. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. And so I'm very proud of I think the large group, I mean we've got 25,000 schools. That's at one point we had identified over 15 million children are in schools that are now in more effective environments. 00;57;57;06 - 00;58;21;09 Unknown Yeah. So and and that's just in the US right. I mean the number of there's 20 other countries that have been adopting PBIs. So. So anyway. Yeah. I think the I love the fact that you were wise enough to say, let's have a podcast that focuses on data. Yeah. And, we if we were doing this and we had visuals. 00;58;21;10 - 00;58;46;04 Unknown Sure. Yeah, we could walk through and we could look at the graphs and we could say, what would you when you look at the graphs, what do you see? Yeah. And your eyes light up because they I see problem behavior in the cafeteria with a candlestick. You know. Yeah. And. Yeah. But the real thing for this is, data are a source of information. 00;58;46;07 - 00;59;15;16 Unknown They're a an element. That's right. Not not the end all. No. They're a piece a piece. They're used for good decision making. And the beautiful thing that we see in data is it transforms teams who are frustrated. And burning out. Into teams that are vigorous effective. They become leaders in the school. And they make a difference. 00;59;15;19 - 00;59;47;19 Unknown And the extent to which children benefit both socially and academically. Definitely. The last question that we had for you that was really kind of important for both of us because we've talked about a little bit a few times over the course of these years. Yes. I can't imagine that in those early days that you and your partners could have thought that PBIs would sweep the nation, right, that one day you might even have a podcast dedicated to the topic. 00;59;47;23 - 01;00;11;08 Unknown Right. For example, that this was not necessarily the vision that you would have 25,000 schools and 15 million students affected by this framework. Maybe it was. Maybe you dreamed big and you thought it. It could be. But we're curious about what did what was your vision in those early days with the team of teams, of people that you worked with, your colleagues in the schools? 01;00;11;10 - 01;00;37;28 Unknown What how have you seen it evolve over your career? And then do you see what do you see coming? Where do you anticipate? Where do you hope it goes? You know, a very insightful comment. And we certainly did not anticipate being part of podcasts. I mean, they didn't exist. I just I just pretend like this is this is my dream job when I was a kid, was to be a radio host. 01;00;38;01 - 01;01;02;26 Unknown And so that's all this is for me. It's just living out. Radio is different. Now radio is on demand. Yeah. And it's working. I sure is. I listen. You may not know this, but. And Megan first was part of the design team. Communication team. She would actually come to meetings and give us little mini lectures more. 01;01;02;29 - 01;01;31;20 Unknown Really. They were. This is how you could convey your message more effectively. Right. So have you considered. So I, I count myself as one of Megan's, people. It's true. So she's is due to know. Okay. So an answer? Yes. Yeah. We were first really committed to helping the schools in Oregon. Yeah. And once we had 50 schools. 01;01;31;22 - 01;02;00;23 Unknown We had enough that we had learned not only how to do it but how to, how to scale it up a little bit. Sure. The real shift was when we moved from Robin George going to school districts, and working with them to training facilitators and trainers. In other words, when we worked with Kleber in Illinois for when we worked with Susan Barrett in Maryland. 01;02;00;25 - 01;02;31;04 Unknown And what we found were here are these educators who were phenomenal communicators. Who had built the trust in their settings where people were willing to listen to them. When we could give them the tools we would go and work with an initial group of schools. But when we did it we would train them to be trainers and we would back out and they would do the training. 01;02;31;06 - 01;02;59;14 Unknown Right. Right. Once we saw that happening. I mean we actually thought this, this is so obvious. It is so common sense. Yeah. This could be we have adapted it to the way that schools actually operate. We, we thought, we thought we could inoculate. We thought we could make a difference. Yeah sure. In a vast majority. 01;02;59;17 - 01;03;26;27 Unknown We got a little maybe 30%. Yeah. But in all honesty my vision was much more than that. So. And it wasn't the real difference was not what we were doing. It was. Remember when we first created the PBS forum in Chicago. Yeah. And we started pulling people together. Yeah. The people who would come were not individuals. 01;03;26;28 - 01;03;51;00 Unknown They were team teams. Right. And they and they were teams that came with leaders. And we, we were able to use that as a way, not just to update people on the newest things and how to make it better. How to do problem solving at district levels and state levels. But we also learned from them. I mean we learned from Steve Goodman in Michigan. 01;03;51;00 - 01;04;24;09 Unknown We learned very very close in. So. So we we were able to take what Kleber taught us. And and do it in different states. It we ended up running into political challenges. And we would have one urban city that adopt adopted PBIs invested heavily. We had 116 schools. Yes. We had trainers and coaches. 01;04;24;11 - 01;04;49;11 Unknown We had the data system going and then they had a new superintendent. Yes. Come in. And she was convinced that the light shined in a different direction. And she moved all of our trainers and facilitators into different roles. And the rate of problem behavior increased by 15% over the year. That who could have guessed right. 01;04;49;17 - 01;05;19;14 Unknown Well it's hard to watch that I understand that. So where they shift away and new leadership comes in like the hard. So we were we were naively optimistic. Measure this I'm sure George was very rational or grounded about it. Yeah. In terms of where things are going. Yeah. Yeah. We are at a cusp. Of massive transformation. The use of artificial intelligence. 01;05;19;16 - 01;05;47;27 Unknown To summarize and organize the data. Can make. So think about any team that is using PBIs. And the Tips process as a data analyst. Yeah. We can do the data analyst role through an AI. Right. And send to ChatGPT. The AI will never give you the answer. That's right. But it will summarize the data and allow you to ask the right questions. 01;05;47;29 - 01;06;14;01 Unknown And that is a huge I mean it makes it easier. It makes it faster. Yeah. The way that, the way that we're able to also get information from children is hugely different. I love the fact, for example, that the state of California collects school climate data. It allows the kids. Do you feel safe? 01;06;14;03 - 01;06;34;02 Unknown Right. Do you feel comfortable. I mean Oregon has a version of doing that. Yeah. That's something that we should always use. It's it's not just our adults thinking the kids are okay. It's what do the kids tell us. And yeah. And unless they feel safe and comfortable it's not going to be an effective learning environment. Exactly. 01;06;34;04 - 01;06;57;08 Unknown If we do PBIs well we create environments that are that are predictable, consistent, positive and safe. Yeah. It's the kids know what to expect. They know they know what to expect. And it's consistent across people across places in the school and across time of day. So it's not that I have to be chuckle in the morning and hide. 01;06;57;11 - 01;07;23;29 Unknown Right. Right. The kids the kids not only are safe they feel safe. And that's a there's a there's very different. They are different. Yep. So and social media has destroyed that in many situations. We need rules where the kids feel I'm okay. Yeah. I know. Okay. And so I think, I think we can do that. 01;07;24;05 - 01;07;51;10 Unknown So those are. Yeah. That's one direction. So the use of data to make it happen. The other thing is I think educators are learning how to work with each other better. And when you when you think about PBIs keep in mind that school is a unit of analysis. That's right. Okay. Child is a unit of impact. 01;07;51;12 - 01;08;16;02 Unknown But don't you don't do PBIs with a kid. You do positive behavior support a student. Sure. But if you do PBIs you do it with a school. Yeah. The other thing that we've learned in the data system really taught us this is implementation of PBIs requires district or regional support. So if you're in rural schools, you need the regional center. 01;08;16;05 - 01;08;36;27 Unknown Yeah. If you're if you're in a district the district has to invest in the data system. You can't have the school do it. Right. So we've got to do a better job of saying the role of the state. The role of the district or region and then the role of the school. And I think we've done much better at talking about what teachers do and what schools do. 01;08;36;29 - 01;08;57;17 Unknown We need to do more about defining what the district and states do. But thank you very much. Oh my God for having me. This is a delight. I mean I've always enjoyed working with you. I will listen to podcasts you know on. I promise you you'll be hooked. There's so many out there. Even if you don't, it's okay. 01;08;57;23 - 01;09;22;05 Unknown It's okay. We were very grateful that you spent some time with us today to share this history. Your experience, and your insights about this framework that really started with you and your colleagues so many years ago, and that we've helped to, to move forward, to scale it up and hopefully with a vision for, for where you all started. 01;09;22;05 - 01;09;27;18 Unknown So thank you so much for sharing that with us again. And with our listeners to appreciate you.