00;00;05;10 - 00;00;18;03 Speaker 1 Welcome back to Expert Instruction in the Teach by Design podcast, where we dive deeper into the research surrounding student behavior by talking with the people implementing these practices where they work and with the students they support. I'm Megan Cave. 00;00;18;03 - 00;00;19;13 Speaker 2 I'm Danielle Triplett. 00;00;19;16 - 00;00;31;13 Speaker 1 It's now September and school at this point for everyone, even here in Oregon, when we start very, very late compared to the rest of the country, is now in full session. 00;00;31;14 - 00;00;32;15 Speaker 2 Our kiddos are back. 00;00;32;20 - 00;00;35;01 Speaker 1 They are. Summer is done. 00;00;35;03 - 00;00;48;22 Speaker 2 I'm fine with that. I'm fine with it. My daughter didn't do any summer camps this summer, so, you know she's middle school. It's different, but she's home a lot and I love her to pieces. But I'm so happy. Yeah, that routine I in the routine. 00;00;48;22 - 00;00;50;05 Speaker 1 I thrive in a routine. 00;00;50;05 - 00;00;50;26 Speaker 2 100%. 00;00;50;26 - 00;01;06;07 Speaker 1 Like I am my best when I know exactly when I wake up. What happens next? The time that the kids are in school, when I come to work, when I pick them up, I live, yeah, routine. So yeah, it was time. Summer or summer was. 00;01;06;10 - 00;01;07;17 Speaker 2 The summer was great, but. 00;01;07;17 - 00;01;11;18 Speaker 1 I'm ready, I'm ready. Get it from an established schedule. 00;01;11;18 - 00;01;12;17 Speaker 2 Exactly. 00;01;13;10 - 00;01;33;21 Speaker 1 Well, today we are continuing our exploration of data as an element of PBIs, and we are, we're really talking about the work that goes into using data in a meeting. And how you can infuse it into the decisions that you make and support the decisions that you make. It kind of guides us in that process. 00;01;33;21 - 00;01;48;08 Speaker 2 And it's what of those things that we all do. Even people that I mean whatever field you work at. Yeah. There's meetings you go to. Yeah. You talk, you look at data, you do things but like yeah, right. It's not always it's a great experience or yeah. 00;01;48;10 - 00;01;54;06 Speaker 1 It's not it really isn't nobody really likes a meeting. And there's that old saying like this could have been any. Oh yeah. They have mugs that. 00;01;54;06 - 00;01;56;01 Speaker 2 Say that socks and all the things. 00;01;56;09 - 00;02;13;02 Speaker 1 The other thing that I'm realizing, Danielle, is that like, this is our second episode and we are covering. So the first one was, data, which is in it's in as a word, it feels boring. And then this is meetings, right? Also feels lot like, what are we doing here, you guys? 00;02;13;05 - 00;02;18;15 Speaker 2 I remember last year we had one all about Starbucks and coffee. Like us. Not when is the fun one. 00;02;18;17 - 00;02;37;26 Speaker 1 But I have to tell you, like the guests that we have coming on to talk about these things that seem mundane are so excited about this work that they're doing that they actually create some excitement in me, and some curiosity in me and how I can improve the things that I do here at work, and how we can share those practices with you all. 00;02;37;26 - 00;02;55;26 Speaker 2 Absolutely. I absolutely, I mean, I just have so much respect for Erin and hearing her, you know, you'll listen in folks listening. But like the work has been going on a long time. I really like this is really a long, long lasting, long lasting project. And that's just not typical in our field. 00;02;55;27 - 00;02;56;25 Speaker 1 It's really a come. 00;02;56;25 - 00;03;00;12 Speaker 2 And go and ebb and flow. And this is something with real staying power. 00;03;00;13 - 00;03;21;00 Speaker 1 That's right. Danielle mentioned our guest. Her name is, Doctor Aaron Shapiro, and, she is our colleague here at ECS. She's a research associate professor here at the U of. Oh, she's a principal investigator on a grant. It's called Team Initiated Problem Solving. And it tips. It tips. That's what we call it. And, it's a process that she's going to tell us all about. 00;03;21;00 - 00;03;44;00 Speaker 1 She's also a coauthor, of a book called Assessment in Special and Inclusive Education. Erin has been a person that we've worked with for a really long time. And, she took over this project from doctor Rob Horner and colleagues of ours that she shares everybody's name, gives everybody credit. But Rob was our guest in August, and she has taken over this project. 00;03;44;00 - 00;04;21;12 Speaker 1 And like Danielle said, it's got legs. This thing, it keeps going. And the thing that she shared with us during our conversation is that tips is the only problem solving process out there that is scientifically based. It's a scientifically based practice that's huge, she said. There are others that are a best practice. There are others that are an evidence based practice, which means that as a scientifically based practice, they know that adults doing this work, the work actually causes, the improved outcomes that the teams had set out to achieve. 00;04;21;14 - 00;04;22;14 Speaker 2 There's not a lot out there. 00;04;22;14 - 00;04;38;14 Speaker 1 There's not a lot out there. I read a lot of journal articles. I go through a lot of really dry stuff, and there's a lot of folks that will say, like, if you do it, it's likely that you could maybe, possibly see this thing, right? That people are it's hard your hard pressed to find someone that will say, if you do this, then that. 00;04;38;19 - 00;04;43;05 Speaker 1 Yep. And that's what they're saying right. So tips is real. It's great. It's great. Well, one. 00;04;43;05 - 00;05;02;28 Speaker 2 Of the things that stood out for me in this episode that I was reminded of and that I've said forever, and I'll say it again in that PBS, like the little secret is that it's not about the kids, it's actually about changing adult behavior because it's changing what we do. That is what impacts the students and tips is such a great model for that. 00;05;02;28 - 00;05;12;13 Speaker 2 And listening to Erin talk, really, she explores that topic and tells us why that is right, and what are some of those best practices that really affect change. 00;05;12;19 - 00;05;37;08 Speaker 1 And they're simple, you guys, these practices, the things that she's talking about are so simple. You can find all of the resources for it on their blog. We'll put a link in the description. You can also find a lot of these resources for free on pbs.org, and the technical Assistance Center's website. And if you stick around to the end of the episode, Erin will share how you too can get involved in this awesome work that they're doing. 00;05;37;15 - 00;05;46;01 Speaker 1 They're recruiting you for their project is recruiting, and you can be part of this process and, contribute to educational research, which is a huge. 00;05;46;01 - 00;05;51;26 Speaker 2 Deal, a great opportunity to contribute to research, but also do what's best for kids. Absolutely. In your own school, for sure. 00;05;51;29 - 00;05;59;13 Speaker 1 Yeah. Listen in. Okay. Well. Hi, Erin. You're back. You're with me. 00;05;59;19 - 00;06;01;27 Speaker 2 And thanks for having me. I'm excited. 00;06;01;27 - 00;06;06;20 Speaker 1 Oh my God. And in person so far, we are two for two in-person guests. 00;06;06;20 - 00;06;13;08 Speaker 2 Danielle, I know the 2025, 26 school year, and I like this. The big season. Oh my gosh, feels different. Feel like. 00;06;13;08 - 00;06;24;24 Speaker 1 That. And the first time that we had Erin on, we were she was our second guest ever. Can you imagine? I just was looking it up. It said episode two, we're on 51. Oh my just came out. This is just came out. 00;06;24;29 - 00;06;26;13 Speaker 2 Congratulations. 00;06;27;03 - 00;06;36;17 Speaker 1 But you were guest number two and we were on zoom floundering, I'm sure, because zoom was so new at the time and you were teaching us all about how to have virtual meetings right? 00;06;36;17 - 00;06;44;14 Speaker 2 How to have positive, effective virtual meetings. Right? I have to say, it's what a different world where we're here. We're here in person again. 00;06;44;15 - 00;06;49;15 Speaker 1 You know, I love it. I know finally. Well, thanks for thanks for making the drive up and for joining us. 00;06;49;15 - 00;06;50;07 Speaker 2 Yeah of course. 00;06;50;10 - 00;06;59;02 Speaker 1 Yea. So we're going to talk to you a little bit. We're talking about a field of PBIs that you seem to know a lot about, or at least you've studied it for a. 00;06;59;02 - 00;07;05;00 Speaker 2 While, have been doing it, studying it, branding it, nerding out on it. Yeah. 00;07;05;02 - 00;07;26;29 Speaker 1 Decision making. Yeah. And so, your grant that you've been working on for some time now is, team initiated problem solving. We call it tips around here. So tell everybody a little bit about what tips is and, how it how is it that this project in particular has been able to sustain itself for so long? 00;07;27;02 - 00;07;55;02 Speaker 2 Yeah. So Tips was first developed by doctor Rob Horner, your previous guest. Yeah. Previous podcast guest along with Ann Todd, Bob and Kate Augustine from University of North Carolina. Other colleagues who really saw the positive things at schools, who are implementing PBS are doing, but then saw that there was a need in the meeting space that people were getting together and they had data, but they still felt overwhelmed by data. 00;07;55;04 - 00;08;17;13 Speaker 2 And so tips team initiate problem solving is filling a gap within that data based decision making, mostly universal tier one leadership team meetings. But also it can be applied in tier two and tier three. Okay, so Tips is just a model basically that helps us. We've got three components to it. We've got the meeting foundations. We've got the data base decision making part. 00;08;17;13 - 00;08;33;20 Speaker 2 And then we have the implementation decisions. And so it just offers the structure to make sure that those team meetings feel good, effective, and that they actually have the desired impact on students that we want them to now love it. We love it. You know, Erin, I want to share it because we talked about the longevity of it. 00;08;33;20 - 00;08;53;02 Speaker 2 And I know working with schools, yeah, you get in this cycle where you learn like educators, they're kind of like, oh, here's this new initiative. It's going to come. And then we're just kind of sit in the back and wait and it's going to go away. Right. Like that's kind of the trend in education. And tips is amazing because it does have such longevity across years. 00;08;53;02 - 00;09;12;09 Speaker 2 And I'm thinking back when I was the PBIs coach and Gretchen Barlow, I mean this was Pi 20 1011 and we were part of a study and I had folks like Ann Todd and Tom to to coach our schools and, and collect data. And I also noticed that in the schools we worked with that were using tips, it did make a difference. 00;09;12;09 - 00;09;31;08 Speaker 2 Like we had an impact. It was just really cool. So I'm just so proud of this work. And I think it just speaks to, what a what an important project it is that it has lasted and it continues to grow and expand and yeah, an absolutely to you. Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm an extension expansion of the team. 00;09;31;19 - 00;09;50;08 Speaker 2 That originally started this work. And I think the first grant that got funded for the research and development of this, of tips was back in 2007, 2008. So you your school district was on, you know, the vanguard of, of this work. So that is really important. And yeah, you should be proud for contributing to those early days of this work. 00;09;50;10 - 00;10;16;28 Speaker 2 Certainly. And then we've had, a total of three grants. Oh, actually, this is the fourth one that we have that just got funded last year. This. And, the unique thing about tips is I'll say this. So that database decision making is very common, right? Anyone doing PBIs, MTS, everyone's trying to do a form of it. And there's different models out there like a lot of people are familiar with PDSA plan do study, act different problem solving models. 00;10;16;28 - 00;10;37;27 Speaker 2 But Tips is the only scientifically based, data based decision making model out there for schools in the country today. So yes, so it has the highest level of evidence of any other data based decision making process out there. So there's others out there that have had some evidence. So they might be an evidence based practice or just a best practice. 00;10;37;27 - 00;11;00;29 Speaker 2 That is kind of the lowest level of evidence. But Tips is a scientifically based process, and that it's had two randomized controlled trials. The one that I have right now is the third one. And because of that Rob study, the last one actually was able to show that teams who are using tips have reduced all out of school suspensions and reduced rates of office discipline referrals. 00;11;01;03 - 00;11;14;20 Speaker 2 So we're able to make that direct scientific connection between the adult practices in the team meetings, the action plans they're building, the solutions they're building, and then having a direct impact for the positive on students. I have to. 00;11;14;20 - 00;11;20;18 Speaker 1 Say that's such a rare thing to find. I read these journal articles often for my daughter. 00;11;20;18 - 00;11;22;07 Speaker 2 You I need to figure it out. 00;11;22;12 - 00;11;33;15 Speaker 1 And it's rare to find anyone who's willing to say that the thing that was implemented correlates directly to the outcome you receive, and. 00;11;33;17 - 00;11;38;29 Speaker 2 Even beyond correlation. So this is a causation, they may say, because of the high degree. 00;11;38;29 - 00;12;04;26 Speaker 1 You'll never see it. Yeah, right. It's never seen. Yeah. So special. Yeah. Yeah. So what a great thing. And how accessible it is to something to just like all of the materials that you guys have been able to put out over the years have been so accessible to people who don't understand necessarily all the science and rigor that goes into this study, can do this in their school absolute. 00;12;04;28 - 00;12;19;13 Speaker 2 And a lot of people do, just by using the materials that are freely available on pbis.org. That's the most of it is on there that you can teach your team how to do it themselves. The videos. Yeah, yeah, yeah there's videos. I mean. 00;12;19;15 - 00;12;21;15 Speaker 1 There's videos. There's all kinds of stuff. 00;12;21;15 - 00;12;50;22 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah it's great. Well, a major component of tips is really, like you said, establishing those meeting foundations. Right. The roles on the team, the norms of how the team operates, a schedule, all of those things. So can you tell us and our listeners like what really makes those foundational elements so critical? I think what makes them so critical is that, you know, we've all gone into a meeting and had that not so great feeling afterwards where like, what just happened was that a good use of my time? 00;12;50;27 - 00;12;54;08 Speaker 2 I was there for an hour, but so did we accomplish any. 00;12;54;09 - 00;12;55;26 Speaker 1 Yeah, we talked about a lot. Yeah. 00;12;55;26 - 00;13;23;16 Speaker 2 I have fun with my colleagues are like, oh, we really complained a lot about that situation, but we didn't actually come to a decision. So I think the power of the meeting foundations is that it gets us organized quickly so we can jump into the work that we need to do. And yeah, so that's really nice. And I will say that, you know, if you were to download the Tips Fidelity checklist from PBS.org right now, you could go and you've never been trained on tips, you probably will be doing some of those things that are on the Meaning Foundation. 00;13;23;19 - 00;13;47;10 Speaker 2 So they're just they make sense. They're practices that make sense. Start your meeting. It's on time. Have an agenda, come prepared. You know, have meeting minutes have rules established. Yeah. So a lot of that stuff just makes sense. But it clears the way to just be able to get to the work and do the, you know, the evidence based decision making process and develop the solutions to, you know, impact the student outcomes. 00;13;47;10 - 00;13;56;15 Speaker 1 So it's so simple, but it's true. There are so many meetings that I've been a part of here in the office, even where we study how to have meetings. 00;13;56;20 - 00;13;57;20 Speaker 2 I don't believe in no. 00;13;57;26 - 00;14;00;02 Speaker 1 You've ever done that, you. 00;14;00;04 - 00;14;02;06 Speaker 2 Know, not Aaron's meetings. No, not Aaron's meetings. 00;14;02;06 - 00;14;20;20 Speaker 1 Erin's meetings are organized today. But, just the even just the lack of an agenda, right. You know, that we're getting together to talk about a topic, but there's been no real thought about how we're going to navigate through that to get all of the information so that we can end with a decision and how we're going to who's going to do it and when. 00;14;20;21 - 00;14;32;20 Speaker 1 Exactly. So, it's those kinds of foundational elements that I think we take for granted as something that we all take minutes. There's somebody who put something up on the, on the screen projected. 00;14;32;20 - 00;14;32;28 Speaker 2 Right. 00;14;32;28 - 00;14;43;12 Speaker 1 Yeah. There's all kinds of those that those types of activities feel so regular. But I don't know that we always do a good job of it. 00;14;43;12 - 00;14;57;17 Speaker 2 No, no. But Tips helps hold folks accountable for those things too. Right. I think that's that accountability piece is really huge because without that it can be just talking in circles about the problem rather than moving forward to solutions. 00;14;58;08 - 00;15;01;26 Speaker 1 Can you say again, what are what are those foundational elements? Yeah. 00;15;01;26 - 00;15;18;16 Speaker 2 So there's six different meeting foundations. And so there's like do you have clear roles and responsibilities? Okay. Do you have a set agenda. Does that you know underneath that agenda umbrella is does the agenda and the meeting minutes from the last meeting are those available at the current meeting. So you can refer to what that. 00;15;18;16 - 00;15;19;23 Speaker 1 Does to what you did last. 00;15;19;23 - 00;15;32;20 Speaker 2 Night. Yeah I'm mouthful. Yeah. We have so much on our brains we can't keep no everything at the forefront of our minds. So we have our meeting minutes. We also have someone with administrative authority on the team. Oh my. 00;15;32;20 - 00;15;33;04 Speaker 1 Gosh. 00;15;33;04 - 00;15;58;00 Speaker 2 So that's a requirement as well. And that that because of the roles responsibilities, is also a part of the meeting foundations. You want the administrator to just be an administrator and not to also be the data analyst and also be the facilitator. We actually want that distributed leadership so that you're building capacity and it's not just the leader telling the team what needs to happen, but that everyone is involved in the process. 00;15;58;01 - 00;15;58;12 Speaker 2 Yeah. 00;15;58;19 - 00;16;24;09 Speaker 1 So smart. Yeah. So smart. Yeah. Danielle and I, as we were talking about, as we've been talking about data as an element of PBIs is like one of the three circles, right, of our framework. I think that sometimes schools have a feeling when we talk about using data for decision making in a meeting or introducing data to inform our decisions, it's not always a good one, either. 00;16;24;09 - 00;16;41;09 Speaker 1 Like, it's not always. It's always met with like, yeah, let's let's do that. Let's, let's use data to collect data. Let's like analyze the heck out of it. So what do you have you experienced that with some schools where they have kind of like A0I don't know about that. And what what do you think that barrier is. What's preventing. 00;16;41;09 - 00;16;42;08 Speaker 2 The from. 00;16;42;10 - 00;16;43;26 Speaker 1 From doing that. 00;16;43;28 - 00;17;00;07 Speaker 2 There are a lot of, I would say, barriers, to doing the work of looking and digging into the data. One is knowledge and feeling comfortable with data. I think people some people have anxiety around even knowing how to read a graph. Is that right? Oh yeah. Knowing how to. Yeah. 00;17;00;08 - 00;17;03;04 Speaker 1 Look, I think we take it for granted because we see it all the time, right? 00;17;03;10 - 00;17;05;12 Speaker 2 Right. We've I'm like we've been proven that. 00;17;05;12 - 00;17;07;15 Speaker 1 So yeah. Yeah. But I could see that we. 00;17;07;15 - 00;17;09;01 Speaker 2 Live in a world we do live. 00;17;09;01 - 00;17;10;08 Speaker 1 In data world. It's a bummer. Yeah. 00;17;10;08 - 00;17;37;06 Speaker 2 And we're in a bubble. Where. Up in a bubble. Yeah. So I think some people definitely data is overwhelming. Sometimes it's inaccessible. You know, we're really lucky because we are mostly working with schools that are using Swiss. And it's very conducive to this process. Using your drill down reports. It's super user friendly. Right. So but when I work with schools and districts who aren't using things like that, they've got to work with a data system that isn't meant for this level of decision making. 00;17;37;06 - 00;17;39;16 Speaker 2 And and so it's a barrier. 00;17;39;16 - 00;17;40;02 Speaker 1 Some. 00;17;40;04 - 00;17;57;26 Speaker 2 For some to even access the data. So that's a big part of it. And then I think, you know, traditional ways of doing things are that the principal or the, you know, assistant principal has been in charge of it. And so it's more of the one person leading the effort, rather than that the collective team working together collaboratively. 00;17;58;08 - 00;17;59;04 Speaker 2 So that I think that's been a. 00;17;59;04 - 00;18;26;11 Speaker 1 Barrier as well, just being able to have access to it and to make decisions together. I think the other part that we've heard too, we just held a community of practice. Danielle led us through a community wide event where we were talking about this question, I think. Yeah. And, some of the things that we heard from that, session were related to, data being used as a punishment, almost as like, this accountability. 00;18;26;11 - 00;18;42;13 Speaker 1 Yeah. That if you have so many referrals that you've written that someone's going to come for you and tell you that you're doing a bad job, or that some sort of consequence will happen to you as an adult because people looked at data for. Absolutely. 00;18;42;16 - 00;19;08;01 Speaker 2 I mean, sadly, there's very famous states and counties and districts who have been caught cooking the books. If you. Yeah, yeah. Because they don't want, you know, they know what the data is internally. But to have to report it to an outside agency, it has unfortunately been punitive. So the work of sharing the data outside of the school or even in the school team, that there's a trust building exercise that needs to be done there. 00;19;08;01 - 00;19;26;26 Speaker 2 And that's also it kind of goes outside the work of our tips, research a little bit. But yeah, certainly district staff need to create the space where it's safe to be able to share the true data of what's happening so that you can truly support the adults in the building, right? To set, you know, make the changes that they need to so that that can then reflect into the student behavior. 00;19;26;28 - 00;19;45;04 Speaker 2 That's right. Yeah. You know, this it's it's really, one of the things we were we've been thinking about asking our guests for this year, and talking about or what are the questions that always come up when we look at data. But I know one of them that's come up for me and work that I've done with teams is often, can we trust this data? 00;19;45;04 - 00;20;22;01 Speaker 2 Does this seem reliable? Is it's actually reflecting what's going on, or is this just reflecting, you know, the some of the teachers who are capturing that or writing referrals or whatever. Like it's not always accurate. Right. That's. Yeah. And I factor there's also work that needs to be done from that collective PBIs tier one leadership team to communicate to all staff in the building with how they're using the data, what they're using the data for, and to share the success stories after they did use the data, because then Stafford with them more motivated to actually collect accurately those minors, those majors, so that the team is better. 00;20;22;01 - 00;20;27;00 Speaker 2 The whole school is better off because those data are being used in that decision making process. Yeah, right. 00;20;27;02 - 00;20;58;29 Speaker 1 Rob, in our August episode, shared that, it's his perspective that when you ask someone to collect some data for you, it's your responsibility as the person looking at those data to share them out within three months of collecting it. And, when he shared that decision rule, it made a lot of sense to me because, we've talked about two before in previous episodes where as parents, we're asked to take a survey about some policy in our students school or district or something, and that's it. 00;20;58;29 - 00;21;24;13 Speaker 1 We just take the survey. And I never hear about what were the results of that survey, let alone how does that affect the decision that someone was supposed to make. And so if you're asking someone to submit these referrals or to take the, climate survey or something else where you're asking people actively to submit this data to your team so you can make decisions, it only makes sense to me that you share out. 00;21;24;15 - 00;21;29;23 Speaker 1 Here's what you all said as a group, as a collective. And here is how that informs our decisions. 00;21;29;23 - 00;21;50;18 Speaker 2 Absolutely. Yeah. Well, so, Erin, I mean, this brings up a good point. Like, you've had the opportunity through this work to work with schools all over the country, meet with administrators privately, observe how many observe a lot of me being seen. I don't I can't number quantify it. But for our last study, we coded over, about 100 meetings. 00;21;50;18 - 00;21;51;10 Speaker 2 Okay. Yeah. 00;21;51;10 - 00;21;52;19 Speaker 1 Okay. Unbelievable. 00;21;52;21 - 00;22;12;13 Speaker 2 Ya. So through those those observations. Right. Are you we're curious, what are some of the red flags that stand out to you for ineffective meetings? And then on the flip side, what are the green flags for when it when a team meeting is effective? I think, you know, for me, you noticed. Yes. I think for me, I, I always start with the fidelity checklist. 00;22;12;13 - 00;22;14;01 Speaker 2 So I knew to start with the data, I. 00;22;14;01 - 00;22;15;19 Speaker 1 Want to resolve ways. 00;22;15;19 - 00;22;31;12 Speaker 2 Of researching. I can help it. You get it. Of course. There's the feeling of how a team works together and you want to hear all the voices represented. And. But if a team is following that, that fidelity checklist where they have the roles and responsibilities, they know what their purpose is in the meeting. 00;22;31;12 - 00;22;32;07 Speaker 1 Oh my God, that's you. 00;22;32;07 - 00;22;57;04 Speaker 2 It's a huge thing that I think people do not take the time to foot with the people just assume that, oh, we're on the tier one meeting team. And so we all know what that team is supposed to do. Sure. And so but it is a worthwhile activity, especially at the beginning of the school year, to go ahead and clearly define what the tier one team, purpose is and what the purpose of the tier two team or intervention assistance team, student study team. 00;22;57;10 - 00;23;16;07 Speaker 2 Everyone needs to be really clear on what their purposes and then how those teams communicate between each other. So I think when I walk into a meeting, if there's only one person talking the whole time, then we clearly haven't done a good job of making sure that everyone feels a collaborative. You know, part of this work together. So that's a big thing. 00;23;16;07 - 00;23;38;01 Speaker 2 So by having those roles and responsibilities as part of the fidelity checklist. So I see that as creating the positive environment that you want people to have so that when they're leaving the meeting, they feel accomplished because they came to the meeting, they did what they said they were going to do. They're following up on what they said they were going to do last week, and they're seeing how that is making a difference with the students. 00;23;38;06 - 00;23;43;27 Speaker 1 Amazing. Right. And then, so that's what you in that. So if you don't if they don't have that. 00;23;43;29 - 00;24;01;27 Speaker 2 They don't have that. And for me obviously if they don't have data. Yeah, if they don't have data that's a huge issue. Yeah. That's like the bottom line. What are we doing here. If we have absolutely no data and we're just talking about like have you noticed that it seems like kids are pushing each other in line, but we don't have actually any? 00;24;02;00 - 00;24;20;14 Speaker 2 Well, it's actually happening with the fourth and fifth graders as they're transitioning through the hallways in between lunch and recess. Right. And it's ten students and maybe, you know, so if you have a whole and they're doing it for peer retention. So we're for a function based. So without the data it's really hard to come up with a plan. 00;24;20;14 - 00;24;26;22 Speaker 2 Yeah. And then for that plan you're lowering your chances of that plan being effective if you're not starting with the data. 00;24;26;29 - 00;25;05;21 Speaker 1 Yeah. I have a I'm think as you're talking about this and we were just mentioning how not everyone is super comfortable looking at data. And so one of the roles that you've talked about is a data analyst role. And so what is that person ultimately responsible for when they come to the meeting. Are they doing that work of like getting to that precise statement, or are they getting broad strokes or like how much does it take to be the person that's like, I'm bringing the data today, right? 00;25;05;21 - 00;25;08;19 Speaker 2 I've got my log in, I can log in to the system, know. 00;25;08;19 - 00;25;19;10 Speaker 1 How to log in and see it, but I don't know what I'm doing after that. Yeah. How far into the weeds does that person get and how much time does that take ahead of the meeting to get. 00;25;19;12 - 00;25;39;08 Speaker 2 As part of the tips process, you do want the data analyst to prepare for before the meeting, for them to have a chance to look at the data so that they are coming to the team with some ideas of some areas that need to be, you know, an area of focus. Yeah. And so, part of the Tips process is defining a precise statement. 00;25;39;08 - 00;25;55;12 Speaker 2 And that's where we talk about the who, what, when, where, why and how often of the behaviors of concern. And that data analyst is supposed to look at that data before they come to the meeting to have a sense of it. Certainly when you get to the meeting, team members can say, hey, I noticed. 00;25;55;17 - 00;25;57;04 Speaker 1 I'm actually more curious about this. 00;25;57;04 - 00;26;14;09 Speaker 2 Yeah, exactly. That a team member could bring some and that can get added to the agenda, certainly. But then before the meeting, the data analyst and maybe the data analyst has spoken with the team facilitator. Yeah. And they're going to talk about it a little bit and they're going to plug in. We have a team I had tips meeting minutes template. 00;26;14;09 - 00;26;42;00 Speaker 2 Yeah. And so that's also available on pbs.org. And we've just updated that. So if you download that we've got a little new version now a more modern version from the 20s. It still says 2016 on it, but no, that it's actually 2025. And when you download the actual. Okay, okay. And so we are looking at the data and that data analyst is bringing the data and doing and then they are logged into the system, and they are able to quickly look up additional sources of data if rated. 00;26;42;06 - 00;27;01;18 Speaker 2 But it does make the team, meeting time go more quickly because some of the work is done ahead of time. And so I think around. Yeah. And personally, like I sat on a team at an elementary school, a tier two team where we were using tips and it was a before school meeting, which is always a little rough for me because I'm not a morning person. 00;27;01;20 - 00;27;32;20 Speaker 2 And that meeting was 45 minutes usually, and every other week. And then because of by the time we really got our tips process dialed in by December, that meeting was down to 35 minutes. I mean, and then sometimes it was 30 minutes, depending on what time of the year and what we knew because everyone came to the meeting, prepared with their data, prepared to report out about the tasks that they had assigned, and, and prepared to know what are the resources available to us to make changes if we aren't seeing the desired change, the result of our intervention? 00;27;32;21 - 00;27;49;08 Speaker 1 I think it's such a common thing to just show up to a meeting. Yes. You like? I'm ready. I'm ready to talk. Oh, yeah. Right about a thing. But that preparation that you're talking about, I've been a part of and have been the person to do some of that legwork ahead of a meeting. And when it happens, everyone is grateful. 00;27;49;10 - 00;27;55;21 Speaker 1 Oh, we have so has been it's like we don't have to like now I'm for now. I got to log in and I got to do the thing. Oh, I. 00;27;55;21 - 00;27;57;11 Speaker 2 Forgot my password though, and let's. 00;27;57;11 - 00;28;15;24 Speaker 1 That, you know, like when you show up and the room is ready and someone has done the work of looking at the data ahead of time, and they will show you what it looks like and how they got there and all of that. It like, it does. It like streamlines. Yes. And it feels like a productive use of time instead of fumbling around. 00;28;15;24 - 00;28;36;21 Speaker 2 Yeah. And it's not I mean, I'm a former school psychologist and I too, don't tell anyone, but I do. I do have things guilty of only showing up. What some of the data that we. Yeah. And now we have to reschedule another meeting because we have to look at all of the data and just SLOs and you know, time is of the essence when we're talking about behavior and creating a positive environment for school students. 00;28;36;28 - 00;28;56;02 Speaker 2 So if we can make all the decisions today and not delay them, right, it makes a huge difference. I would say that's a good takeaway. I mean, I'm just thinking back to when I was coaching schools, like a lot of the work I did was not at those meetings, but it was to prep for the meetings. It was to make sure that people had roles, responsibilities, whether they were using tips or not. 00;28;56;02 - 00;29;13;02 Speaker 2 But it was. It's just getting ready for it. The same as a classroom teacher, right? Like I can't just show up and be like, okay, we're going to do math. Like I have created lesson plans. I have thought about that. And so it's kind of the same mindset from a teacher to do these meetings. Yeah. And a lot of the prep sets you up for success. 00;29;13;02 - 00;29;31;21 Speaker 2 Absolutely. And then the team is able to do the work of creating the solutions together. And that's the collaborative approach. Whereas the digging in the data might not be everyone's cup of tea. So it's good to take that off of some people's plate and just use your time as efficiently as possible when you've got the whole team gathered. 00;29;31;24 - 00;29;51;22 Speaker 1 As someone who does like to look at data and has helped people to like, interpret it, are there questions that you like to ask whenever data come across your like, yes, your screen. At this point it used to be like slide it across the table or whatever it's doing useful for. Someone's trying to present you information. Are there questions that immediately come to mind? 00;29;51;22 - 00;29;53;15 Speaker 1 Most of the time? 00;29;53;17 - 00;29;58;22 Speaker 2 I always start with, what's the purpose that were? First of all, that was a question we're trying to answer. 00;29;58;22 - 00;29;59;10 Speaker 1 Yeah. 00;29;59;12 - 00;30;17;22 Speaker 2 With these data. Yeah. You know, are the hallways safe? Well, I if I only have the cafeteria data here, like, that's not going to help me out, you know. So I had to give a very odd example, but but yeah, are do I have the right data to make the decisions? I need to make? So we have to start with the question we're asking even in the first place. 00;30;17;25 - 00;30;44;19 Speaker 2 Or do we only have the kindergarten data available? But actually we were going to focus on the upper grades today. Oops. Yeah yeah yeah. So just starting with what's the purpose. And then at some point, you know, in education I think nowadays, frankly people are drowning in data. There's so much data out there academic, social, emotional, behavioral. And so we need to be really clear about which type of data we're using, for which purpose and at which meetings. 00;30;44;21 - 00;31;16;01 Speaker 2 And frankly, are there sources of data that we don't need to collect because no one's actually using it? Yeah, maybe we can revisit it another time, but let's focus on these three main sources of data. If it's attendance, you know, our literacy screeners, our odd hours, and maybe like a school climate measure. Yeah, let's start there and just really get focused and be very efficient with the resources and data we're looking at, and then see what improvements we can make based on a critical, collected group of data rather than everything. 00;31;16;01 - 00;31;33;02 Speaker 2 Yeah, once and not being able to use all of those. Yeah, yeah. You, you the capacity to do all of that. It's better to do a few things and do those really well and then scale it up over time. Exactly. Love that. Okay. Well let's switch gears okay. So we've learned a lot about the meeting foundations. Yeah. And these pieces and using data. 00;31;33;02 - 00;31;50;19 Speaker 2 But how do we get from looking at the data to really developing solutions. Right. Like how do we define the issue we're talking about with next steps. What are those steps or where do people start. Yeah. So we have you know, a six point process. That's what that's what makes. 00;31;50;19 - 00;31;51;15 Speaker 1 You gotta push your glass. 00;31;51;15 - 00;32;15;02 Speaker 2 I know I do. Yeah. You all can and see if there's anything. We have a six point process to go through our database decision making process. And that's what makes tips effective. Frankly, this is so meeting foundations is great. It helps make everything run smoother. But where the magic happens is in that database decision making process. So we start with defining the precise statement, as I said that who, what, when, where, why, how often we identify a goal for change. 00;32;15;02 - 00;32;35;07 Speaker 2 And this is something that a lot of teams skip over, even in teams in our research who have been trained, only about 30% of them will really work on the goal for each and every one of their intervention plans or solution plans. So that's something to think about. And we do Smart goals, which I know many people have heard, but measurable, you know, realistic, timely. 00;32;35;07 - 00;33;02;26 Speaker 2 So all of that part of the goal is embedded in there. And then we focus on identifying the solution. So what's the intervention plan. And the solution is where I think again the tips process gets a lot more specific than most people are used to. So when PBIs team is focused on building an action plan, a lot of times we lean back on things like booster sessions, to reteach, schoolwide expectations. 00;33;02;26 - 00;33;20;15 Speaker 2 And we'll do that for the whole school, maybe even though the issues only at fourth and fifth grade or, you know, kindergarten. So with the tips training, we ask people to think about the solutions, interventions, more holistically and multifaceted. So we say, you know, what's a prevention strategy you can use? What's a teaching strategy like a booster. 00;33;20;15 - 00;33;42;07 Speaker 2 You could use what's the recognition system that you're going to use for this. So you could have all three of those. And also what's the feedback that we're going to give to students who aren't, you know, in board and online with this, with the new way we're doing things. Yeah. So you're looking at not just doing one of these strategies, but how can we do multiple aspects of these strategies. 00;33;42;07 - 00;34;02;07 Speaker 2 And maybe different people are going to be different, are responsible for different aspects. So like someone in the who's got lunch duty on Wednesdays, they're the ones who are responsible for the recognition and positively acknowledging students who are, you know, not not, you know, pushing other kids in line at the cafeteria line, whereas the classroom teachers are the ones who are going to practice with their classrooms. 00;34;02;07 - 00;34;26;25 Speaker 2 Again, before how we go into the cafeteria, you know, what those expected behaviors are. And then maybe there's at the schoolwide level, there's going to be, an announcement, you know, every Monday, Wednesday and Friday about like the classroom that did the best job of cleaning up in the cafeteria as well. So it's not just one single approach, but it's giving those interventions, a really rounded, dynamic, multifaceted approach. 00;34;26;28 - 00;34;45;01 Speaker 2 And I think the nice thing about this, too, is that it's not, too burdensome for any one for just classroom teachers. Like, they're the ones that have to fix stuff, or just the principal has to fix it. Right. So this way it's again, everyone is included in that process, and you are tying it to what you think the function of the behavior is. 00;34;45;07 - 00;35;06;10 Speaker 2 So we can't. Right. So, you know, if it's like to gain pure attention in the cafeteria that this stuff is happening, then we're going to teach the kids what are more or different a ways to positively get that your attention right when they're standing in line at the cafeteria. You know, what I was thinking when you were explaining this to was that it's really getting everyone on the same page. 00;35;06;10 - 00;35;20;25 Speaker 2 And that's what, like when I was a teacher and our school was implementing PBIs, I was drawn to it because I felt alone in my classroom. Right. And this was like, oh, we're all going to be on the same page about what's expected at our school. 00;35;20;27 - 00;35;21;26 Speaker 1 And they're. Yeah. 00;35;21;26 - 00;35;42;28 Speaker 2 And so it takes the weight off one person's shoulders or it's not like, oh, the lunch duty person will they're in charge of lunch. So good. Like it's like right there waving their hand like, help please. Like let's all we're having announcements. So the kids are getting and the adults in the school, they're all hearing a consistent message about what the expected behaviors are, what we're all about at our school, and supporting each other in, right. 00;35;43;04 - 00;36;06;14 Speaker 2 That's huge. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I kind of think of tips as like an up leveling of PBIs, so it just layers. Okay. It just kind of layers on to PBIs. So I think it's a great thing to focus on. Two if your school has been doing PBIs for a while and maybe people are just feeling a little bit static, you know, maybe need some a refresher. 00;36;06;14 - 00;36;16;03 Speaker 2 Yeah. That this is tips is a really nice practice to focus on just to feel like you're refining and dialing in your already great and established practice. And so. 00;36;16;04 - 00;36;17;00 Speaker 1 Yeah, well. 00;36;17;01 - 00;36;49;12 Speaker 2 That makes me think those folks listening. So does the school need to be implementing PBIs to use tips, or do they need to be doing it with some level of the like, who's this for? That's a great question. So you do not have to be implementing PBIs in order to use tips. And in fact, we have a lot of partners across the country who work for different agencies, early childhood settings, youth youth centers and all sorts, even adult rehabilitation centers that use tips as a part of their system wide, data based decision making process. 00;36;49;12 - 00;37;10;16 Speaker 2 So it's really diverse with some states, Pennsylvania, shout out to our colleagues at with Peyton. They've done a great job of adapting tips to be usable for academics as well. Right. So it's really diverse in that way. Most of the research has been done with tier one PBIs. So that's something everyone should know. We like to focus on the areas where we do have the data and we do have the research. 00;37;10;16 - 00;37;29;07 Speaker 2 And so it's mostly elementary schools, tier one, we did have a study that wrapped up in 2022, 23 that was focused at tier two at elementary schools. And then our current study we have as elementary schools again, but certainly people are using it in secondary level applications too. Yeah, absolutely. 00;37;29;07 - 00;37;51;13 Speaker 1 I've been a part of meetings here in this office where we have used the meeting template, the process of tips, like setting every meeting, that's a brand new meeting. We set those norms like what is our purpose, who's doing what, how are we going to handle facilitation? Is someone with decision making authority available in these meetings regularly? When are we holding them? 00;37;51;13 - 00;38;04;04 Speaker 1 Do we have a room to hold them in and will name E-Hybrid? All of those things like we set it all up and it's all from this work. Yeah, absolutely. It works in other settings because it's just good practice I think. 00;38;04;05 - 00;38;06;08 Speaker 2 Yeah, exactly, exactly. 00;38;06;11 - 00;38;09;16 Speaker 1 Well, Aaron, where can we learn more about and what's up next. Yeah. 00;38;09;16 - 00;38;33;23 Speaker 2 So we are currently recruiting for our study okay. Hey y'all. So if any if any of you are interested we do have a website. It's you'll put the link in a link. Yeah. Yeah. The blog blogs dot u organi edu slash tips and tips and yeah, we're recruiting for 76 schools across the country over the next four years to receive the Tips training rather a randomized controlled trial. 00;38;33;23 - 00;38;58;19 Speaker 2 But we're really wanting to empower the county offices of education. The ISD's, the ISD's education service districts, the school districts. And so we're basically giving that training, all those training materials and so training with the site and then so that they go on and train other schools and districts, across their areas in their region. So, you can go to that website to learn more. 00;38;58;21 - 00;39;18;22 Speaker 2 Right. And yeah, and also will be at the PBIs Leadership Forum in October. That's right. And we're doing a pre-conference to it's free for folks to come to. If you're already coming to the conference to, to talk about a Tips update. And then also we are going to be releasing a couple of really cool, apps as far as PBIs apps and training. 00;39;18;22 - 00;39;41;24 Speaker 2 So look for 2020 fall 2026 for announcements about a Tips meeting minutes application that's embedded within the Swift suite. Ed educ. Yes, I have a I had a sneak preview yesterday. It's been behind the scenes journey has been great. Giving us feedback on the, meeting minutes application. And then we also are putting some of the tips training online. 00;39;41;24 - 00;39;52;24 Speaker 2 And so, in fall 2026, we will be looking for some beta users for that training as well. Certainly at the at the secondary level where it's not going to overlap too much with our current research. 00;39;52;24 - 00;40;03;22 Speaker 1 Yeah. Also lots of opportunity. Yes, to get involved and to do some outreach with some schools that maybe aren't as connected with some of our other partners itself. That's awesome. 00;40;03;22 - 00;40;18;23 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. So we're and we're recruiting across the country. We are currently working in California. It looks like we'll have some schools in Massachusetts. And we've got some inquiries with from other states as well. So don't let geography be a limitation okay. Open to all. 00;40;18;25 - 00;40;23;01 Speaker 1 Well, we're so glad that you could be here and join us again. Third time's a charm. 00;40;23;06 - 00;40;38;24 Speaker 2 You're our only so far our third time. Yeah. Gosh. Thanks. Your Honor. Special. You are special. This is really important work you're doing. And you're following your data to know how many. Yes. They are. You sure are. Great job. Thank you. Thanks. Thanks. Erin.