Expert Instruction Template

00:00:05 Speaker: Welcome back to Expert Instruction, the Teach by Design podcast, where we dive deeper into the research surrounding student behavior by talking with the people implementing these practices where they work and with the students they support. I'm Megan cave, I'm Danielle triplett. Danielle. It's December, happy December, happy December everybody. Uh, I was we were just talking. And, uh, this time of year always feels like it would be a great time for things to just to slow down a little bit and feel festive or cozy. It's winter. It's getting darker. We're coming up on some holidays and some maybe some traditions that people have and some time off. Yeah. So it starts to feel like maybe it should be a slower time in our lives and yet. Ha! It has not felt that full speed ahead. Holy smokes. We have been busy around here. We're working on videos. We're working on new and upcoming projects. Oh my gosh, so many webinars. Our the training team. We've got so many new webinars. We're planning and scheduling and creating. I know in twenty twenty six there's a lot of energy around the, uh, around the house, around the office, both house and office. Right? Yeah, all of it. Uh, one of the things that we do every December is our favorite things. I love our favorite things. Me, too. Yes, yes. Um, yeah. So we just came out with that list. Yeah. This year. Megan, tell me, how did favorite things start? Because this was something you and maybe Robin developed. Yeah, let's hear about it. So because I've been part of it. But I don't know, like the origin story. The origin story. Let's hear it. Yeah. Favorite things started I don't know, I think it was twenty sixteen, maybe twenty seventeen. I can't quite remember the date. Uh, but it was whenever we really kind of kicked things off with our Teach by Design articles where we combine, uh, research with the when we pull out the practical strategies from it and try and insert some memes and GIFs and things that people might find interesting. Anyway, so we started that whole series and we thought, who's reading that in December? Really? Like we're trying to think about what where you all are at in your school year. And like we just said, things are busy and yet you just want to get to that break, right? Right. Well, and schools generally don't do like a lot of professional development or things in December. Like they're busy but they're not starting new, you know, interventions or initiatives. Right? No, we are not going to be talking about how you can kick off your tier two practices in December, right? Like not happening, not happening. So we needed something light. And around that time, uh, a very popular list came out. You might know this woman. Her name is Oprah Winfrey. Oprah Winfrey. Yes. She's a real up and comer. Maybe you've heard of her. Um, just I want to. I want to add that in Megan's office, she's got this huge poster of of Oprah. And when I do zooms with you, like, it's like she's in the background. She's in the background, like. Just like. Your cheerleader back there, like, go Megan. Yeah. Oprah and I attend zooms together. Always. So, uh, my colleague Robin Sperl and I, we love to look at her list because it has some practical things, but it's also full of, like, really impractical gifts. Super luxe. Bougie, very expensive things that we cannot afford. No one can afford it. It's like a dozen cookies for fifty dollars that you can ship to a friend across the country. Like nobody's doing that. A robe made of cashmere and. Well, I would love that. Yeah. It's crazy. But we always love to look at her list and just kind of scroll through it. And so we thought, oh, my gosh, what better thing to do than to come up with our list of favorite things for everyone? So, uh, so we started doing it and uh, when we filmed the little snippets that we include in that list. I think we said it was our first annual, which is always hilarious, right? Because it's not an annual tradition until you do it a second time. Yeah, right. So anyway, we did it the first annual and then it was like, well, now we got to do it a second time, a third time. And so I think I don't even know how many times we've done it, maybe eight or nine times at this point. And so, uh, yeah. So that's how we came up with the list. And we try and do new things and only recycle maybe a couple of our, like most favorite items. But we try and make it new and fresh and include some websites or things, tangible things you can buy fun things. Things for educators, things for students. Yeah, yeah. And one thing that I love and I've been part of, I missed it this year. But we, you know, the the your colleagues, our colleagues here, um, we get to participate in it and bring in our favorite things. So I know one of mine from yes, maybe two years back was called Cards Against Anxiety. Yeah. And it's a deck of cards. You know, we'll throw a link in there for it, but it's really cool. Some really great strategies for coping and managing feelings of anxiety in your life. It's great for all ages. So for kiddos in your classroom for using in your home for um, I actually gave one to my daughter's, um, school counselor as a resource, um, and a thank you gift to her. So yeah, those were really great. It was cool to see them in person that year. And this year. Um, we highlighted loop. Uh, earplugs. Oh, yes, I saw that. When you hear about earplugs, you think you're actually, like, drowning out sound. And it wouldn't make sense to wear them in classrooms, but there's such a cool earplug where you can actually, it dims the background noise. Okay. So you can kind of think of it like a hearing aid might amplify voices. The earplug dims the background so that you can really focus on the person that's talking directly to you. So a lot of a lot of kids, a lot of adults are distracted or overwhelmed by that background white noise and the earplugs really do a good job of it. And when we started talking about them around the office. Um, I think some folks maybe bought some for family members. They bought them for themselves. And it felt like for a hot second there, Danielle, I felt like an influencer. Uh, you are an influencer. Megan. So much. I immediately need to take to Instagram and offer a promo code. I love that, yeah, I don't have one. Click below. Use my link. Yeah, I love it. I do not have one. I do not. That's a great one. But what was another? There was another favorite that you introduced to everyone. I think it started up last year, I think. So it was last year. It was the community of practice for PBIs apps, which I kind of kicked off the ground with your support and lots of others, um, here on our team, um, and that's a monthly group that we bring together virtually of practitioners and educators from all across the country to take some of this research and take, you know, these best practices and really create a space, um, to problem solve and share ideas and really, um, you know, it's just a build community amongst us. And so it's been fantastic. Yeah, I'm really proud of it. I love hosting it. We do it, um, once a month on a Friday. Um, and so, yeah, it's free. It's open to everybody. Um, and so yeah, yeah, it's been cool. It's been a cool, uh, strategy around here for hearing from people out in the world. Right? Like we can sit in our offices and offer up what we know about research and evidence and the framework and all of those things go out into the public and talk to people at conferences, all of that. But the community of practice, the PBIs community has really given us a space to talk to all of you out there and for all of you to connect with each other. Exactly. Um, to talk about a topic that makes, um, that you have questions about or have experience with. It's been cool to see it take off. It starts small, right? Like, yes, each session starts a little bit small. Maybe we have five or six people come, but then there'll be like a session that happens where we've got thirty people that come. Right. Um, and it's so it's cool to see that dynamic play out. Yeah, it's been great. well, Danielle, what's been one of your favorite parts, though, about doing this podcast? You know, I've been doing it together for a couple of years now. Yeah. Gosh, I'd say doing the podcast is one of my favorite parts of my job. Like I often tell people, and I live in Portland, I'm remote. So I drive to Eugene once a month and I plan it around my podcast day. Like, that's when I get to come. And it's my favorite day because I love being remote. It's a good fit for me, but I also love being in person, seeing my teammates. There were lots of snacks here today, for example. Um, so that's yummy. But my favorite part about it is uplifting voices of folks out here doing incredible work. And I really like I like being part of the recruitment for it and kind of figuring out with you who we're going to talk to and what questions we're going to ask them. Um, and what sort of exemplars we want to raise up and, and share with folks out there. So it's been um, the podcast has been a labor of love for sure. And, uh, there are times where I think, oh, I'm definitely going to talk to this person this month about this topic. But on the times when I happen upon a guest, those are some of my favorite moments. Like, I remember, um, interviewing a student, um, down in California who was an active member, not just like a student liaison, but a real member of the school board. And I remember after talking with him that I thought, well, that kid could do just about anything in his whole life. Absolutely. Um, and it just leaves you inspired. You know, talking to folks or when you came back from the forum and you were like, we got to talk to Starbucks. Oh, yes. We got our friends, our green Ohio friends. Yes. Yeah. It's those kinds of times where you're like, I didn't even know that this was happening. Let's just get them on the podcast and talk to them and see if we can learn more about their story. And sometimes we just wing it when we're recording with them. But other times we get a chance to talk to them ahead of time and learn a little bit more so we can highlight it. And just making those connections and meeting real people, doing this real work that might seem theoretical, um, when they can bring it out into like the light and say, no, it does work. And here's how we're doing it, where we are. That's it's such a cool thing to hear. I agree. Uh, another guest that we've had on a lot, actually, she's one of our, um. I think Billy Joe might be giving her a run for her, for her money, but she's been on several times. Three times. Maybe now. Her name is Doctor Aaron Shapiro, and, uh, she's a colleague of ours, and she's, uh, whenever I'm thinking about, uh, researcher to talk to or a colleague or a practitioner or a coach or just a friend, um, Aaron really has a way of talking about things that make it all seem super possible. Yeah. She has such a history with the framework. She has such a depth of knowledge when it comes to educational research. Yes. She's so respected in our office and in the field, um, that it makes sense that we would have her on when we need to tackle some, some topics that might be a little bit challenging to get through. Yeah, she makes the information that she shares very accessible to people too. Like, I just love listening to her and how she describes things and I know. Yeah. And she's one of these people that gets excited about the work of it, right? You know, and the data in particular, like she nerds out on it like we do, right? Like for sure. For sure. So, uh, because it's December, uh, we didn't want to, um, and we know that everyone is busy. So we thought today we'd share with you these favorite things of ours, but that we'd also share one of our favorite episodes that we recorded with Doctor Aaron Shapiro back in twenty twenty one. Uh, it was one that we recorded over zoom. We just had her in person to record the most recent episode with her. Uh, but at that time we recorded it over zoom, and she and another colleague of ours, Doctor Jenny Joseph, joined us to talk about how to use data for tier two decision making. So just this year, Aaron talked to us about the tips process. The team initiated problem solving process, and she talked to us specifically about how that works at tier one. Well, back in twenty twenty one, she talked to us about how that can work at tier two. And so we thought we'd just do a little rerun of an episode for you guys and let you listen in on, uh, some of her best tips, her and Jenny's best tips for how to use tier two data in your decision making. And that'll help set you up, too, because in January, we'll be back with a real guest recording with us in January, uh, we'll have doctor, um, Billy Joe Rodriguez and Noah Van Horn back with us to talk a little bit more about some tier two systems level pieces, I think. I can't wait to have them. They're so generous with their time to do a a series with us. It's really true. So for now, enjoy. Uh, Doctor Aaron Shapiro and Doctor Jenny Joseph and all the things that they have to tell us about tier two data. Yes. Happy New Year. We'll see you in twenty twenty six.

00:13:09 Speaker: Aaron and Jenny, thanks for joining us today. Hey, Megan. Hey, Jenny. Hi. Thanks for having me. Yeah, it's nice to see you both. So we're talking about tier two teams, which is something that you all have spent quite a bit of time working on in the last few years. Um, so right before we get real far into it, I feel like school wide teams is something that people can kind of get a handle on. They kind of know a little bit about the decision making process. So let's try and like build a quick bridge and get everyone from um, like talking about what's the what's similar maybe. And uh, how does a, how does a student start to come up for a tier two team? How does a student appear on their agenda? Good question. Well, maybe I'll start with just kind of the the global idea. And then Ginny can take it more to the local level. Um, but just at the global level, you know, you're thinking about your school wide PBIs team is really making decisions about how the overall PBIs school wide system is functioning. So they're really doing some problem solving around grade levels or around areas of the building. And it might be that that team identifies an individual student or a couple of individual students who are really having more challenges than other than other students in the same environments. Um, and so they might get a nomination for the tier two team, or the tier two team can really take a more focused approach to looking at that student, that student schedule. What are the environmental factors around that student? So that that student can be supported in a more direct and targeted way. And generally, schools will have a tier two team and a tier three team, but a tier two team that's focused on interventions that maybe are less resource intensive than tier three, which are implement. Yeah, faster, uh, kind of more in small group settings. Um, sometimes it's called a standardized protocol approach. So it's less less individualized. So and generally we recommend for schools to plan for about fifteen percent of their student population to be served by some tier two interventions. Okay. So Jenny, what does it look like when you actually. Yeah. So that's a high level right. So let's talk about practitioners. What does that look like in practice. That was really comprehensive. Um I'm going to try to add something to that. Um I think um, what happens a lot in practice is the way that, um, students are tending to get on, um, tier two team agendas is more through, uh, teacher referral. And so what we talk to um, schools about and that might be before, um, some, some more intensive coaching or training on tier two implementation. Um, and so what we talk to teams about is more looking at data for the preventative piece, kind of more what Aaron was referring to. Um, and I know we're going to dive deeper into what data we look at later, but, um, but we try to, to, um, you know, guide teams in the direction of being more preventative because often the teacher referrals, um, they've been implementing a lot for a while, and they tend to be more, um, intensive students once they get to a point where the teachers are asking for help. Right? So they don't necessarily consider that there's an in-between step. Maybe. Yeah. The behaviors have escalated to a place where they might need more individualized support, but they could have sent in a referral earlier. What might be another way that. Um, so, uh, teacher referral might be one way that students could end up on the agenda. Are there other ways? In terms of data? Um, what we talk to um, students about or sorry, tier two teams about looking at, um, student data, uh, office discipline. Referral data is one that teams commonly look at. Sure. Um, attendance. Tardy. But then we're also talking a lot of schools are starting to look at universal screening type data for more internalizing data. That might. Yeah. Um, might signify a need, um, for more intervention than what tier one is currently providing? Right. What might be what's an example of a universal screener for that you're thinking of? Um, a couple that we talk about a lot with teams is the Sddc, the Strengths and Difficulties questionnaire, as well as the SRS, which is the Student Risk Screening Scale. I think I got that right. These acronyms, man, I swear, sometimes I just feel like I'm scrambling an alphabet when I'm having an actual meeting, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And then, um, a couple other referral, like active referrals. We, um, we advocate for making the referral, um, something that you put on your website, maybe that students and parents could also access and, um, actively, um, advertising that that's that, that's there if you're concerned smart student or if, um, if you as a student recognize that you need more support, then here's the way that you would access that. Yeah. Yeah. So what does a what does the tier two teaming process look like. So you've got some students like now you're you're working as a team. I'm a little bit familiar personally just through some of the work in the previous articles and the work that we just normally do about what the school wide team is doing during their decision making process. So what does that like now at the tier two level? I think that's a tricky question for teams actually. Tell me. I feel it is. I feel like the composition of the tier one team is, is pretty straightforward. Like, here's what you do. You've got an administrator, you've got a coach, you've got representation across the different grade levels or for secondary teams it's subject areas. But and the tier two team needs an administrator. They need coaching support. But they also need more of that expertise around the social emotional behavioral supports. Um, so, um, that helps guide, um, you know, reading the data and interpreting and, um, selecting evidence based interventions. Um, so I and I, and I think because schools are so different, um, in terms of resources and capacity, there's no perfect formula for putting your tier two team together as far as like who's on it. Um, yeah, I definitely agree. It varies. And, um, according to the size of the school, the resources available, and that's personnel resources. And then we've seen some schools where they have, um, like a tier two and combined tier three team. So one week they meet and they talk about tier two interventions and supports. And then the next week they talk about tier three and do individual student problem solving. Um, another option is sometimes we've seen that there's, you know, a tier two team, but one week it's more focused on coordination. And so they're talking more about housekeeping and like well how many kids do we have in this intervention. Or we're kind of overwhelmed over here. So we need some more support. So they're doing kind of more of those organizational systems problem solving on the coordination team. And then the next week they're talking about individual student progress monitoring and figuring out who's moving into which supports. And so there are a number of ways there's a lot of moving parts. Yeah, definitely. And it has to have that contextual fit. Like what's going to work for your school with the people that you have. So people aren't overwhelmed and meeting on too many teams and stretch them. Uh-Uh, uh-uh, are there any um, like if you're going to structure your agenda, are there some ways that schools traditionally kind of work through it at all, or is it just still like super contextual. So everybody's kind of making things up on their own. Or are there some recommendations for like how you could work your way through your meeting? Yeah. Well, Megan, I feel like if we were just having a tennis volley, you just hit me like the nicest ball. And I could just, like, tap it right over. Oh, great. Great, great. Because basically, you've opened the door to team initiated problem solving, which you know is near and dear to my heart. Um, yeah. Tips for short. And, um, basically it's an evidence based, scientifically based process for problem solving and for teaming that starts with kind of the meeting foundation. So it's, you know, a science regardless of who you have on your team, if you have special ed teachers, school psychologists, principals, classroom teachers, instructional aides, every person in the team has an assigned role, uh, and that includes data analysts, as Jenny was talking about. So someone who has that additional behavioral and data expertise. And then you have your facilitator, your note taker. But then the process for meeting through going through a set agenda does help to keep the team organized and starting with, yeah, focused. And so that you can actually get through your agenda in the limited amount of time that you have your meeting for. Yeah. Um, so we're not kind of bopping all over the place like, oh, we forgot to talk about that student. Oh, wait, did you? I forgot to follow up with you on that. And instead we have all the students that were maybe progress monitoring. Then we have the students that are newly nominated. Uh, then we have the students that were, you know, need to follow up and transition to a different team, maybe, you know, go into grade level team focused with teachers or maybe tier three, uh, more intensive intervention supports. So yeah, there's definitely a way to structure it. And they can people can find resources on the PBIs org site. Um, and then as far as tips goes, it's a key word on the. And if they look at the database decision making on PBS.org there's more resources there. Great. Great. Jenny, did you have anything to add around that? Um, we we use tips in our training. Um, and and we love it. So yeah, we advocate it's a, it's a great way to keep you on track and organized and accountable. I mean, nobody wants to be in a meeting in the first place. Like no one's stoked on a meeting. I don't think I don't think maybe there are people out there, but that's not my experience. And, um, I think we've all been a part of those discussions where it feels like we're just talking about things, but never really focused on, well, what are we going to do about it? Jorge Segui, I think, used to say that we were admiring the problem and, um, just it feels good, I think, to vent about things or to talk about what you see and to share your perspective on that. And all of that is really great. But ultimately there's a certain amount of time that we've got together in a room where we can make really good decisions. And so anything, I think to keep that discussion available and like happening, but also like directed to a purpose I think is really important. Yeah. Yeah. And I can I add to that we, you know, have data to show that using the Tips agenda in the process actually reduces the amount, the length of the meeting. So, you know, we've seen where teams have forty five minutes set aside regularly for their meeting. But then after starting to use the tips process, they're down to thirty five minutes and they get done early and they get can get people, you know, back to their classrooms or wherever. Uh, and then the other piece is that people actually leave the meeting feeling a sense of accomplishment and like, hey, they feel really good about leaving that meeting because we said we were, you know, we did what we said we were going to do. What we're doing is having an impact or it's not having the impact we want and we know what we're going to do about it. And so people leave the meeting feeling more purposeful and committed to the effort, rather than leaving a meeting feeling frustrated and not sure about what the next steps are. I'm envisioning one of those really terrible infomercials where it's like in black and white and like, they can't, they're just all thumbs in the kitchen, you know? And then something comes in and it's like, it's everything is so great now, you know. That's what I'm hearing. Right. Yeah. The magic wand. What am I doing in my meetings? You know, like, I should check out the tips. It's pretty amazing. It's pretty amazing. Just the structural changes that can happen. Um, and then, of course, it goes deeper. The problem solving process goes deeper. And looking at alignment between function and behavior and the interventions. But if you can get the logistics down, that's a really huge step in foundational feelings. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So, um, in our article for October, we always spend time talking about something called the October catch, which is around using your behavior, your school wide behavior to identify some students who could benefit from additional supports, and not just identifying them, but identifying them so early that they may not have even showed up on your radar in the first place. We're talking about students that have, um, I think it's two referrals by October or one referral for defiance if you're in a middle school, if you have one referral for, um, defiant behavior, that research shows that these students have a trajectory toward ending the year with six or more referrals. So if you can identify who these students are now, it's possible that you can change the trajectory for their year right now in October. So, um, because of that, if we have schools that actually participate in that process and actually look at those data at the school wide level. It's possible that the tier two team could see an influx of students showing up on their agendas in by their November meeting. So, um, I'm curious, like, what is the step? What's the next thing you do? Right. So how does the team start to review the students that are on this list? What are the decisions that they will probably need to make? What are the data that they might want to pull from to make those decisions? What happens? Uh, we typically, um, have teams think about, you know, what are the cut points for data decision making ahead of time? So, um, so they're thinking about, you know, when do we know for different sets of data if kids are on track, if they're at risk or if they're in need of, you know, more intensified individualized intervention. So, um, so teams should have, um, Some sort of decision making rolls around. You know what? Here are our data. What are they telling us? And should we provide more intervention or maybe even just ask more questions? Yeah. Um, so that's typically what we do with students and the data sets. Um, but what. Oh go ahead, keep going. I just, I just I think the data are so important to put in the middle. Which tips does. Yeah. Everything points back. You use it to inform. Yeah. And, um, because I think as educators, we tend to want to make things better. And um, so sometimes the, the focus is more on we need more intervention. Um, which is not necessarily the case. We just need to know, you know, what does the student need? Um, so how might you go about making that? What are those? What are some of those decision points that you see tier two teams adding and looking at all the time. Um, well, like you were referring to the office discipline, referrals, the majors, the minors, um, attendance, which they usually refer to their district um guidelines for when is attendance becoming a problem? Um, to the point where it would be, you know, a big meeting at the district. And so we tell them to kind of backtrack. Well, how would you intervene earlier before it became that big meeting? Yes. Right. Um, like what would the what would the point of intervention be? So they kind of do some math and, and you know, some guess points and then they fine tune it as, as it, you know, goes along. You know, maybe that wasn't early enough. Maybe we need earlier. Um, same for Tardies. Um, and then as I mentioned before, the universal screeners, they all have their own cut points to follow. Yeah. So would you administer those? Um, once a student is, once the team receives the referral for a specific student, is that the point you would administer those screeners, or are they happening all the time? The screeners are typically a regular progress monitoring tool that we would administer throughout the school year. As long as we have already developed some tier two intervention to, um, to provide the support, we want to make sure we're identifying kids. We have something available to provide them with the support that they need. Um, can I, I it's kind of a question and answer at the same time. Yeah. Um, so one thing that we've been doing as part of the tips research is, is asking tier two teams to, at the beginning of the school year, look at their school enrollment and then figure out what's fifteen, what's that number of fifteen percent of their students. That's such a smart thing to do. Yeah. Just like okay. So that means that that we're going to have fifty kids, that fifteen percent is fifty kids. And so do we have supports for spaces for fifty kids. And so when the October catch comes around you can say like, actually we have spots for fifty kids and we're only currently serving twenty five, so let's do our October catch. But then let's also see, okay, that gets us up to, you know, maybe forty five. Yeah, we technically have five more spots. So like who can kind of to Jenny's point about prevention, who can we identify now through teacher referrals saying here, here's the interventions. This is, you know, the the behaviors that they can typically support. Who do you have on your rosters that might benefit from this for six weeks and, um, see how that goes. But so that's something that we've been shifting to. Jenny, I don't know if you've had schools try most a lot of times schools have too many kids and not enough intervention support. So it works the other way around. But sometimes in the smaller rural schools, it actually is the other way where they actually have spots for twenty five kids, but they're only serving nineteen kids. So when our schools start to do the math, they they get a little nervous. Yeah, yeah. How are you going to do that. Yeah. Yeah. But it is good to start. Like, you know, the beginning of the year is that time for menu planning essentially like what is your menu of interventions that you have available and how many spots are available. And if we don't have the resources, that's when we need to go to the district to say, you know, this is our student population, these are the needs we have. Here's our data to show this need over the long term. Um, how can you support us to be able to serve those students? So and I think schools are starting to also access, um, community based services and be a little bit more thoughtful about how we can use those community providers. Possibly up at the tier two level instead of just that individualized kid level at the tier three level, which we've traditionally done. Can you talk more about that? What does that look like involving the community? Uh, how long is this? I know, I know, I don't know. Yeah. I think it starts with just developing, um, the partnerships with community agencies. Um, here in Orange County, we, um, we have regional mental health coordinators at the county office. And so they've really been instrumental in helping districts access those community providers and make those connections and those relationships. So still an ongoing process, but we're getting there. Yeah, I think that's great. How do you know that you have like you talked about this menu of supports like these menu, this menu of interventions that teams could then access and be like this is a good fit for. How do you know first of all that you don't have like you know, those menus at restaurants where you open them up and it's like pages of stuff and you're so overwhelmed with like, this is a little, can they really do all these things well? Can they do all of them well? And also now I have like a fifteen minute process to figure out what it is that I want to eat because I have to read through chapters of, of options. So how do you know that you're starting to get into that realm? Or you have you have you've missed some type of intervention that might benefit specific students, specific groups of students at a tier two level. So how do you start to develop that menu and kind of get it into like a good range? Um, and then how do you know which one to assign for which kids? Yeah, I'll just say the one thing that immediately comes to mind is the TFI, the tiered Fidelity inventory, which is a fidelity measure. And if teams like tier two teams look at the TFI for tier two, there's going to be some guidelines there. Like do you have a set protocol for your intervention. So there's a lot of times where people say like, oh yeah, we have this tier two intervention, but no one's actually received support on it. There's not actually a clear mechanism for how a student gets nominated for that intervention. There's, you know, so you want to have the intervention that menu available and know that each of those menu items has someone who's been trained, has someone to enter the data, has someone to, you know, communicate with parents. So, um, you want to make sure that each one of those interventions as a part of the menu has, has the supports around it in order to be successful, and that the kids who are going to get access to it are going to get access to the full intervention, not just. Well, what I can do on Tuesday, but it's really supposed to be a Monday through Friday kind of intervention. So yeah, I don't know. And Jenny, I'm sure you have a lot more to add about this, especially the alignment. But that was my first thought. Um, yeah, I think, um, excuse me, I think, um, your point about the tiered fidelity inventory was really important. Um, and there's also, um, a table in there that makes sure that, you know, you're, you're looking at your menu of interventions and give some guidance there for teams, um, looking at function of behavior, making sure that you have, um, some different interventions that meet the different functions of behavior. And, but I also think part of it is being flexible at tier two and, um, making sure that you're looking at your data, which may be telling you what you're missing. Um, you know what? What is whatever the student need is, um. The customer is always right. Is what they need, right? So. And what we need to develop for kids. That's great. I'm learning. This is great. Well, I love in that, like, moving along through that process a little bit is that of course, every decision making team. Aaron, I think you referred to it earlier where you said you have students that you're monitoring, students that are new to the program and students that you need to transition one way or the other. And so every team has this charge of, um, looking at what's working like, how do you know that it's working? So what does progress monitoring actually look like at at tier two? Yeah, there's multiple levels of it. You know, I think uh, just I'll just say like there's time. So how long has a student been in the intervention? Um, and maybe the time is the trigger, because this is supposed to be, like, brief. Right. You're not short term. Yeah. Not in theory. Yes. Perpetually on tier two. Right? Yeah, yeah, I see a smile. Jenny. What's. I know that's a knowing smile. Yeah. Yes. I think that's an excellent point that students should exit. There should be, you know, the intention of placing a student into intervention with the intention of, you know, exiting at some point. So the idea of fading when students show that they're making progress is so important. Yeah. Yeah, I would imagine too, though, you've got some students that are that love what they're doing. So at some point could there be some sort of like compromise there where like they can keep doing it, but we're not going to necessarily check in on them? Yeah, I've had students come back and say after they've been faded off of support, say, hey, can I can I do that again? Because they just like checking in with Mr. Johnson. Yeah, well, and I've seen teams where they scaffold like the like you said, you're fading a student off of check in, check out, say so. They're not checking in every day, every single period with their teacher, you know, morning and afternoon, but instead they just go to the check and check out room in the afternoon to say hi to everyone. But they're not really a part of the, you know, the intervention anymore, right? But it's more that they had that positive adult connection. And you know, that's great. And that's what's going to keep them there and keep them, you know, all all systems running positively. So but um, but yeah, I think time is a big one. And then just always there's uh, data being collected. So you're getting um, is you're getting data on is the student being successful in the intervention? Is the intervention having the impact on the student's behavior that we're looking for. And so if at any point, um, there's a goal set. And so if at any point the students outcome in that intervention drops below that goal, that's also an opportunity to say, hey, what's not going well here? And how can we progress monitor, you know, are we looking at fidelity. Is it that the student has been absent. Is it that the intervention provider has been absent, like, I mean, you have to look at all of those different aspects of, um, of implementation and then, yeah, at a minimum, we do encourage teams to set a time threshold. So every six weeks, if even if it's going awesome for a student every six weeks, we want you to check in about that kid and just say like, okay, is do we keep going for how much? You know, do we just check back in six weeks, or is this an opportunity to talk about scaffolding? Um, I like the tips form because that's that's built in to the progress monitoring piece is, you know, how many students are receiving which intervention and how's it going? And, um, and there's there's a couple other tools out there to, to monitor progress. Um, we haven't had this happen yet, but I could imagine, you know, if if we get too many students in an intervention. Hey, maybe that signals a need to talk to the tier one team about something we need to do differently for all kids, for everyone. Yeah, absolutely. I always appreciate talking to folks in this space, because there's such a commitment to using data to inform decisions. And, um, I, I'm wondering like does is that sort of one of those checklist components to selecting these interventions as options that you have a way to measure to measure what it is that's working and not working? Does every intervention come with a data point or are there some where that's not the case. Are you speaking specifically to measuring fidelity of implementation fidelity, but also just to know like if if it's working for the student. So you put them into an intervention, you enroll them in an intervention and you need to know, is it the intervention that's working, or is there something else going on for a student that's either benefiting them or making things get a little bit sideways? Yeah, I'll just say that I think, uh, as a part of kind of the Ta center and the and the tips work, there's a threshold of, you know, if you have if seventy percent of your kids. Sorry. There's, you know, kind of like if below eighty percent of the kids in an intervention are not succeeding. Um, something's wrong with the implementation of the intervention. If you've chosen an evidence based intervention to begin with, it's a fair point. Yeah. You know, if you're doing something that, like I whipped up while I was on summer holiday, and I think it's going to work, but I'm not really sure, you know, then that's a different story. But if you've got, like, check and check out or something, and you have sixty or seventy percent of your kids being successful on that intervention, the implementation of the overall intervention needs to be examined. Um, or the or the fit for the kid and the fit. Um, um, yeah. And I and I think not check in check out is so great because it does have kind of that built in, uh, point system where you can easily track how they're doing or how, you know, affecting them. Um, and I don't feel like every intervention has that built in. I think you're right. I think we just have to build our own, you know, what is the point of this intervention? And how do we measure if they're gaining those skills? which I think is why it's so important to have the people on your team that can do that, that understand, you know, what do we need to measure exactly? Um, we don't have to be uncovering a student's deepest, darkest secrets to say whether or not it's being effective. It can be a little bit more objective than that. Um, and that's something that the intervention provider can establish, right? So if you're running, like a social skills group and you have a social skills curriculum, you've got five kids in, you can set that personal threshold of, you know, these are the goals for the outcome for these five students. And, you know, the important thing is to set a goal so that you know if it is successful or not, whatever your metrics are. So yeah, it doesn't have to be the database and the check and check. Out there can be more informal methods of, but there needs to be some way to check in and to know that it's not just your personal experience with this particular student, that it's actually like there's something going on that's actually helping and benefiting. There should be some way of measuring. It goes beyond the I feel they're not they feel like along with along with like what they're seeing on the playground. Yes. Perhaps ask around. Um, so anyway, I really, um, the thing about tier two teams is just to me, it's not, you know, you have like an area where you feel like real comfortable and confident. Tier two is not one of those for me. Um, so I'm always appreciative of having people come in and, and talk to us about like some of these logistics, like, how do you get it started? You've got students that appear on your team, and I am a first time tier two team member, and I don't I don't know what to do. Like I've got a list and now I got to do something about it, you know. So I think all of these Tips and tricks to try and navigate some of that. You know, figure out what is fifteen percent of your school population? How many students could we potentially be serving in this capacity? What are the data points associated with each of these interventions? Do we have enough people, adults, to run each of these programs, or should we scale back? Or do we need to ask someone else for some additional resources? Have we reached out to the community to like, see what what's out there that could connect really well with, um, students that we serve in our school? So all of that is like really good food for thought. And it's, um, it's more than just a yes or no question. It's like big umbrella questions that you can actually talk about as a team. So I really this has been really helpful for me in my, in my learning on things. Anyway. What else what else is coming up? What else is coming up for you guys? What are you working on right now? What's on the horizon? Um, on the horizon, mostly. What what we're focusing on is integrating the equity and mental health work into our tier one implementation and supporting schools. With that, I think I think I'm hopeful that maybe that will even affect some of the students who are coming into those tier two interventions. Yes, because as we've seen, students are we all are experiencing so much stress in our lives right now. We've just we're trying to come off of the last eighteen months. I feel like I keep saying eighteen months and maybe it's longer now. I don't know, I don't know, but it's like it's been a big deal and it's had a big impact. Everyone's been affected. So doing it as a universal only can serve to help at tier two. Yeah. Great. Yeah. Uh. Same question. Let's see here. What am I up to? Well, I guess I've been, um, working a little bit with the Choose Kindness Foundation and their efforts to have be kind be one of the added a school wide expectations, the usual three B's. So that's been a fun project to work on. And there's eighty four schools across the country who are, uh, piloting that work. And then, um, yeah. And then continuing with the tips work, we're actively updating all the tips training materials right now. And, uh, soon we'll have some updated information on PBIs about tips. And so stay tuned there for that information. Stay tuned for that information. Yeah. Me too, me too, me too. Well, I really appreciate you guys taking the time. Thanks so much. Thank you.