Expert Instruction Template

00:00:05 Speaker: Welcome back to Expert Instruction, the Teach by Design podcast, where we dive deeper into the research surrounding student behavior by talking with the people implementing these practices, where they work and with the students they support. I'm Megan cave, I'm Danielle Triplett. Well, Danielle, here we are. We're back with another episode of our Mythbuster series. So popular people love it. So good. Um, I our guest today is, uh, Doctor Chris Borgmeyer. He's our friend from Portland State University. Right. Portland state? Yes, that's my alma mater, by the way. Oh, my. Yes, yes, yes. Um, he was a grad student here at the U of O. Um, and now he is up there in Portland doing wonderful work. Um, and, uh, for a long time now, his, uh, focus or what we know him best for is all about function and, uh, why students are doing the thing that they're doing and, uh, starting to put together some supports based on that function. Yeah. And so we knew when we were talking about this topic today, we had to talk to him. Yes. Yeah. And he he was. Thank you Chris, by the way. You responded like within hours, like I think I was down here in Eugene and we're like, well, I'll be like, I'll email him. And he was like on it. So we we were really excited, um, to talk to him more and learn about this and learn about the history of how Fbas kind of came to be, along with PBIs. Mhm. You know, both were written into the Ida law in nineteen ninety seven for the first time. And so we've got decades of, of doing this work and yet there's still a need. There are still new educators and new folks out there who are like, help me understand this. Why do I what's an FBA? Why do I need to know about this? And I think he broke it down in a way that it really comes to. Um, first one of the the rules is we never do an FBA without also having a plan. And that plan should be a PBIs plan, something to really support the kids, and the goal of it is to have a function based support plan so we can say, okay, we've got this, kiddo, Megan, and let's let's understand why she's doing what she's doing and have a plan in place to meet her needs. That's right. And just to piggyback on that, too, is that, um, the thing that I really took away from this episode is that, uh, we can think about the formal assessment, right? The formal FBA as the thing that's legally required, um, as, uh, for any student who is on an IEP. Yep. Um, who has missed school for more than ten days related to a disciplinary action. I think that's what he had talked to us about in this episode. And so we could do that, or we can and we can also do more that we can actually shift from thinking about FBA as a formal process. And we can actually start to think about function based as an adjective in our work. Yes. And so we have function based assessments that we do. We have function based support plans that we can provide. We have we can think, um, we can do function based thinking in our classrooms where we start to really think about, why is my student doing that? Um, we can develop a function based understanding of what's happening in our school. So I really liked that, that, um, that while FBA feels like a more formal process, function based, whatever is something that we can do with any of us, could do any time with any student anywhere. Yeah. And it has lots of benefits in our in our classrooms, in our, in our lives as we interact with with any humans. Right. That's right. Yeah. So, um, we were so grateful to have Chris join us today. Um, he's giving us. He's breaking it down for us. He's given us the history, the definitions, and he's telling us he's trying to help us through exploring this myth that FBA is only for special education. Right. Um, and so I would venture to say that we busted that myth today. But you listen in and you tell us what you think.

00:03:59 Speaker: Well, thanks for joining us today, Chris. We're so happy to have you on this episode with us. It's great to be here. Thanks for the invitation. And I've long admired the work of Teach by Design, so thank you. Oh, great. We've actually we've referenced your work. Um, we're we're referencing it this month as we're talking about, um, motivation and, um, recording all of that information as part of, um, referrals that get entered into Swiss, let's say. Um, and so your work is, uh, well received over here and, and something that we've looked at for a really long time. So we're grateful to have you here to talk to us about this myth that we think, um, people might have in their minds that we would like to either confirm or bust with you today. And that myth is fbas functional behavioral assessments are only for special education. Mhm. Um, and so I guess before we dive into some of the, the details around that, we just thought we'd open up by asking you where you think this idea comes from, that, um, this, uh, this kind of assessment only happens when students are referred for special education. Yeah. Why do people out there have this in their heads? Why do people think this? Well, it's, um. I mean, it comes right out of special education law. I don't think anybody ever functional behavioral assessment was not terminology or a concept in education until, um, it was actually introduced in the nineteen ninety seven reauthorization of I.d.e.a. Um, and so that's first time functional behavioral assessment showed up in the law or in many, probably any educational context. It's also the first time positive behavior support was referenced in the law. And so and they were hand in hand. And so, um, functional behavioral assessment was intended as a safeguard, as a protection for students with IEPs. And so the idea was, um, you know, we shouldn't be able to just continue to suspend or expel or deprive kids with IEPs of their of their IEP services for behavioral and disciplinary reasons. And so, um, functional behavioral assessment, you know, based on at that time, probably thirty years of research was identified as, as the best way to understand how to intervene with students. And so, um, yeah, it was introduced through special education law, and positive behavior support was introduced because we wanted to move away from more punishment based interventions for the same population of students. Um, and so that introduced an emphasis on prevention and early, you know, earlier intervention for students to be proactive and try to prevent problem behaviors. But the the way that that it was really interpreted and understood, I think when the law came out was um, uh, the law sort of stipulated that, uh, students with IEPs could miss up to ten days of school for disciplinary reasons. And so once they exceeded ten days, then a functional behavioral assessment was required. Um, and a positive behavior support plan to try to, um, you know, prevent the kids from missing their IEP services, which by law they should be able to, to access. So, um, so it was a legal protection for these IEP students and, um, that, that uh, um, the intention of that is very good. Right? The intention is let's, let's maintain, um, these students access to, to their IEP services and let's, um, provide them the supports that they need. However, it became kind of interpreted as like a legal compliance. The legal side of it kind of took over, and a lot of schools and districts sort of interpreted it as we have ten days and then we should do something when the idea was to be more proactive and to say, hey, if we have kids heading in that direction, why don't we do a positive behavior support plan based on functional behavioral assessment and prevent the kids from getting into that sort of place of legal compliance? But um, but it and this is terminology I would hear, uh, you know, over the years was sort of we have this ten days to give. And so we have ten days. And then if we hit that legal limit, then we should do a functional behavioral assessment. So what that made it into was really a last resort process that we use because it became, um, you know, really oriented around the legal compliance side. And we certainly know that, um, you know, legal compliance is is big and important aspect of special education, but it's also, um, you know, very punitive. So I would say that, um, in some ways, this has limited the use of functional behavioral assessment because people see it as only something we do in the most severe cases. Yeah, that's been my experience with it. I mean, I, I come to this, uh, from a non as a non-educational person, um, is, is how I was first introduced to this acronym of FBA. And, um, it always it seemed to me at the time that I first heard about it that this is this is something that is a big deal. It is something that you do in in rare instances that and takes time and experience and um, yeah. And it's this, it's I think it's what you're speaking to, which is that it's like it's an escalation. And so now you have now you have to do it, um, as opposed to what it, what it actually could be because. Yeah, I was, um, after we had had a conversation with you, um, last week. And so as you were talking about the legal requirements of it, I started to look just a little bit just so that I felt a little bit more comfortable having a conversation today. And, um, and that ten days really stuck out to me that like, oh, it's after ten days of missing school for disciplinary, like a ten day, ten days of suspension, a long time now you're gonna do something about it. Now you're gonna get it. Someone on a plan feels too late. Yeah, yeah. But it's, you know, it's such a, you know, the compliance side of things is such. It's so punitive and it's very scary. You know, going to due process as a special education teacher or administrator. And so, um, that, that kind of that side of it has, has um, almost made special education administrators like gatekeepers. And so oftentimes while we only train school psychologists to do fbas or only Bcbas can do fbas, and it's really limited it to that realm of special education. I do trainings, you know, all over the place and um, I'm in I'm up leading trainings and people are saying, oh, well, I can't do fbas in my district because I'm not this or I'm not that. And so people are very sort of nervous around it because, um, because of the legal compliance, which has limited people's access to understanding and in preparation programs, you don't see, um, FBA being trained to general educators or even school counselors. In many cases, the only people who oftentimes get it is school psychologists and maybe, um, special educators in some special ed licensure programs. So. Mhm mhm. Well so let's fast forward I think this is fascinating to hear about the history. And I remember you know I started doing this work I well I started teaching in two thousand and five and joined the PBIs team at my school. And I remember it was kind of like our special ed teacher was the team lead. And I remember I'm just thinking back to these days. And, Chris, you worked with our schools. I've known you a long time. Um, but, uh, in east Multnomah County. Um, but I remember thinking like, oh, PBIs shouldn't be a special ed thing. Like, as a general ed language arts teacher, I was. I drank the Kool-Aid, I got it, I was like, no, we all need this. We all need. We don't want to wait till it gets up to this level. Like, let's do more to be proactive and preventative. So I'm just reminded of that. Um, but I'm curious now in, you know, twenty, twenty six, thirty some years later from passing that initial law, like, what is an FBA? Tell us what it is in the current context, like what is an FBA, what's the purpose and why do we conduct them in schools as you see it now? So, functional behavioral assessment is is just an assessment, right? Uh, for its title. And one of the things I want to sort of caveat right away is, um, I never want to hear functional behavioral assessment without behavior support plan right next to it. Um, and we can combine those and say function based support. Um, because the only real reason to do a functional behavioral assessment is to inform an intervention plan. That is the whole purpose of FBA is to understand what is, you know, why is the student engaging in these behaviors and what are the the the factors contributing to the student's behavior. And so a functional behavioral assessment uses what we call the ABC framework. So it's antecedents behaviors consequences. And then through understanding of the antecedents behaviors consequences we understand the function. And so um antecedents are just the triggers to behavior. And so what we're looking for is what are those things that are directly, um, you know, triggering the student's behavior within the environment. And so it might be that, that math worksheet that's too difficult. It might be asking the student to read aloud. And so functional behavioral assessment is trying to identify the patterns of behavior that help us understand what is likely to set the student up to engage in behavior. And then what's the response that the students getting that they're learning? Um, hey, this is making this behavior functional worthwhile, right? And so they engage, they engage in the behavior. So say we give them that that math problem that they're struggling with. They engage in problem behavior. We say, go sit out in the hallway and the students like sweet. Yeah it's the payoff, right? They get paying off for me. And so essentially we're, uh, the functional behavioral assessment is usually more formally it's, um, you know, behavior specialist is maybe starting with a records review and then doing an interview with the teachers and staff involved that might be, you know, it should be followed up with an observation of the student, um, in the setting where the behaviors of of concern. And then you might do, um, you know, interview with some other staff members or an interview with the student. Um, so those are most, you know, many of the common features of a functional behavioral assessment. Um, but it's, it's really to understand an assessment, to understand what are those things that are, that are contributing to occurrence of the behavior and what's the function. Why is it paying off for the student? Great. And so we the reason we conduct them is to inform the intervention and the plan that we create, that they go hand in hand. It it. And where the misconception might be coming from is that FBA is part of a legal requirement, um, related to special education. And so as such, lots of times people implement it after those ten days of suspension as a legal compliance rather than as a way to inform a plan. Mhm. I gotcha. I like that and I wrote down the goal is it's kind of combining these terms of FBA and PBIs and the goal based support is function based support plan for kiddos. Yeah. Love it. Yeah. And once I mean and what you see sometimes in the compliance is you know, we get to those ten days and people say, oh, we got to do a functional behavioral assessment. But it's really about what's the plan? We need to do the plan. And um, and from the compliance side, what you see a lot of times is people will say, oh, before we can move the student to this more restrictive placement, we need to do a functional behavioral assessment. But it it's not a tool for deciding should we change placement. You know, those decisions in an mtss framework should should only be made after, you know it's response to intervention. Is the student responding to the interventions that we came up. And that's where, you know, function behavior assessment and behavior support plans can be really helpful for informing interventions even before a student is being evaluated for special education, but we don't see it or use it oftentimes that way because again, it's people see it as so restricted to use, um, only in those most extreme cases. And the behavior support plan is not built into the law. It is a functional behavioral assessment in the law. It's always paired with a positive behavior support plan. Yeah okay. Yeah. So there's always that connection. But sometimes you see it kind of used um in isolation or talked about in isolation. And that should really never, never be the case. Um, so I what I hear from you, though, is that even though the law says that we should do this after ten days for students who have an IEP, um, after ten days of a disciplinary action out taking them out of school, that perhaps this is something an FBA is something that we could do way earlier. And, um, I think our question is, is it only is it something that we would only do for students who have an IEP, or is it something that we could do for any student? And when would you decide that an FBA would be an important thing to to conduct? Um, yeah. So we um, Because the term functional behavioral assessment is so like, uh, tied to the special education side. Um, a lot of times we, we talk about like function based assessment or function based thinking or function based support as a way to try to expand the the way people think about it. Um, but, you know, the real you know, what I see is the real shame is we have this really powerful technology, um, we, you know, built on fifty years or more of research, um, that basically says, um, you know, the best way for us to identify how to, to support students behaviorally with the most direct impact is through function based understanding. And so we absolutely want to expand use of this outside of those most extreme cases. So um, we talk about, you know, doing it for students with IEPs before they're at any risk whatsoever of being at that ten day mark of suspension, um, doing it for kids, um, you know, before they have IEPs, uh, as a, you know, within a MTS framework, again, you know, that could be one of the deciders is if we can implement a function based support plan for a student with the existing general education resources, maybe we don't even need to elevate this to a special education evaluation or need. Um, and that is probably one of the best strategies that we have for matching kids to, to what they need, um, even previous to special education. And then we can also there are ways we can utilize it in like tier two and tier one. Um, you know, I train my, my students, a special educators to do formal functional behavioral assessment, which is, you know, the interviews and the observations. And usually that's because they're going into a different context and they're like observing a student in someone else's classroom. Right. So you have you have a little bit more to learn. But I always tell them that we have you do this formally, but my hope is that the greatest benefit to you is that you're able to use it informally, uh, regularly. And so, so you're able to say, hey, I've got this student in my class. And, you know, during that math group, we have, uh, the students engaged in this behavior six or seven times in the last week. Can I just slow down and say, hey, have I noticed anything about what's triggering the behavior and what the behavior is and what's the response and what's the student learning from that response? And so not doing an interview, not doing a formal observation of any kind, but just being able to apply it to my own students by slowing down and looking for some of those patterns that then I can, you know, direct me towards, you know, probably the most practical and, um, uh, parsimonious interventions I can implement. I like what you said, too, about how you might be able to utilize some general education resources to implement a new plan for someone that you don't. It doesn't have to be that you need this level of support, like some specific level of support, just because we're looking at the function of your behavior that, um, and I think it's really true that ever since I've understood or learned about what it means, that behavior is a response to a context that I in my own life. And every day I just start to think about that, like, why would someone keep doing the thing, you know, whether it's my kids or my husband or a friend or a colleague or whatever, they're doing something that I think, well, that seems a little strange, and they keep doing that thing. And I often do find myself thinking, well, why are they doing it like that? Um, and it leads to, to think about, like, what is my role in this and how could. Is there something that I could do that would be a small change that could actually get us all on the same page about something. So it's true. Thinking about function. Um, as soon as you learn about it. Um, I do think it starts to play out just more, um, casually in the way that we conduct ourselves in life. Okay, I can't help but think about this, Chris. And the idea of that one thing that stuck with me about PBIs over the years has been that it's really about the adult behavior more than the kid behavior. Like, that's what's in our control, right? And so I'm thinking about, you know, how we, you know, how we would sort of bring this to our general education teachers who really I think we all are educators, want to understand our kiddos. And that's where sometimes these labels come into play, like, oh, this kid has ADHD or this one has anxiety or something, but it really is about saying as adults, how can I help this kid? How can I get them so they can actually access the academic content I have and and meet them where they're at? And so help us understand how we talk to general educators about why they want to collect information about motivation or function, and what the benefit is of having that information at like that sort of just universal level. Yeah. So when I think about this, an example that comes to mind is I think, um, you know, I always hear people in professional development say, we're going to for teachers and educators, you know, we're going to give you more tools for your toolbox. Yes, yes. And so people get all these tools from toolbox. Well, now, you know. Exactly. But, you know, you think about this if you're a, you know, if you're a carpenter or whatever, right? You know, if I just give you a hammer, um, you need to know when to use it. When, when is the right circumstance to use the hammer? When's the right circumstance to use a screwdriver? Right. You start using a hammer on a screw. It's not going to turn out well, and vice versa. And so I feel like a lot of times we, we give people tools, but we don't give them a framework for understanding when to use which tool. And so that's where function based thinking can be really helpful because, you know, unfortunately there aren't any interventions that are universally effective with students. And that's the real challenge that we face with with behavior. Right. It is so contextual. It is we need to understand things about, you know, why the students are engaging in the behaviors. And so so this FBA function based thinking is a framework that allows us to match that more effectively. Because any tool you know can do one of three things. It can make things worse, which is the worst case scenario, right? It can it can really have no effect whatsoever if we're missing the mark, or it can be, uh, you know, an intervention that's effective. And so we kind of have a thirty three percent chance of getting it right if we're just sort of willy nilly picking interventions out of a hat. Right. And so function of intervention allows us to, maybe most importantly, rule out those things that are going to make things worse. Right. Nobody wants to to make things worse. And so, you know, the Hippocratic oath in medicine, right, is first, do no harm. But, um, we we we fall into the trap if we don't, um, and, you know, thinking about just simple intervention, like, say, um, you know, time out. You know, we can very easily misuse a simple intervention like time out. Um, if we don't match to the function of behavior, if a kid, you know, is in that math class, and we give them that worksheet, and the student starts throwing a fit, and we say, go to time out, the student's going to say, well, that's that worked out pretty well for me, right. And so versus, you know, understanding that time out requires a time in. And there's got to be something the student wants to be a part of. And that's that's related to the function. If the student really wants to be in that kick out kickball game and they engage in problem behavior and we, um, you know, we say you got to sit on the bench, take time out for a few seconds. Like that's going to be a meaningful consequence to them, um, where they're not learning. Hey, I'm getting to avoid math through my problem behavior. And so just being able to, to use an understanding of function to match to interventions that are going to be more effective, um, you know, it's going to help, uh, teachers be able to, to maintain and support a more effective classroom and work with those students more effectively. I love that. I appreciate the toolbox analogy, too, because I've been in so many PDS myself. And it's it's just this like phrase we hear. And yet you're right, we need to know we can't have too many, that we can't lift the toolbox. Like, that's not helpful. But we also need them to be marked or something as we're learning like a hammer and use it for these three things or. Right. These are the tools and how how we can get those in place. Well the and the you were describing to that the formal assessment that um, that it actually has a component where you're doing some sort of like review of data and um, some data I would imagine, is that we're looking at a pattern of behaviors for students. And one way that we document that is through referrals. And one piece of information that we can ask of people who are directly observing that behavior in the moment is, why do you think that student did that? And it doesn't have to be this formal thing. You know, where you are, a school psychologist or whoever. Um, and you can just give it your best guess and just say, why? Why? I think they did. I think they did it because they want to get out of the math worksheet. And, um, and that becomes a piece of information that when it gets to this more, um, uh, coordinated effort, I guess, to try and understand what's going on for a student because the behavior has become so disruptive that it's taking them out of learning for one reason or another. It's affecting their learning or their access to academic instruction, that there already is this history of people who have collected data about the behaviors that they've observed, and they've given it their best guess at why it's going on, so that when people are looking at that data, it helps them to actually implement a plan and move forward with that maybe a little bit more efficiently. Right. So great. Yeah. So I mean, at the tier three level, that's um, you know, if we're doing a formal behavior support plan for a student who has a long history of behaviors, um, if we have those referrals, you know, it provides some information that can guide us in the right direction quicker without, you know, doing. And, you know, we still may want to do the the interviews and the observation in that case. But we have some preliminary information that gives us some good, good, good help. Now think about this at like the the tier two level. So we we oftentimes say oh we're going to start with check and check out for kids. And it you know it's a great intervention that supports a lot of kids. But if it doesn't support the student usually um, you know we first check maybe we're not doing with fidelity. But the next question is, is it a match to the student's needs and actually match? Right. And while while check and check out does a lot of wonderful things and has a lot of supports, um, you know, for some kids who are avoiding tasks because they can't do the work that's being asked of them, um, check and check out doesn't give them a strategy for for addressing that. And so we could maybe look at, at, you know, this student's referral history. And if we have five or six referrals and they all say avoiding tasks, um, we might be able to determine that maybe, um, an intervention that, that is geared towards that. So, um, you know, some examples like breaks are better is an intervention that some, some schools have implemented that teaches kids to ask for a break and gives them a more socially acceptable way to meet their needs, rather than engaging in the problem behaviors to meet their needs. When you were talking about timeouts, I was, oh, sorry, I was just going to say that reminds me of that. Like teaching kids rather than waiting to take getting in trouble and getting a timeout versus being proactive and saying, maybe you could use a break and then come back to it. Yeah. Yes. Please continue. Yeah. So that link that that you're talking about right there is is so key and so critical. And it's, it's the shift. You know, once we understand function then you can say oh well what interventions should we have. Intervention options. So oh I could if I understand the triggers I can do things that prevent the behavior in the first place or make it. I'm not putting the student in the same situation over and over again. Right. And so um, or you know, if I could Maybe I can just teach them another way. Like you just suggested, to request a break before I'm sent into. And that that's working for everybody, right? I'm not disrupting class. I'm not. I'm learning some self-regulation skills. Totally. And so. And then how to respond. You know, um, I might be responding in ways that are feeding right into, um, you know, the, the, the function of behavior and rewarding and reinforcing the problem behavior. And so we've talked about the timeout example, but attention is, is maybe even a, a more common example where, you know, if a student doesn't have the skills to request attention appropriately, they lean into problem behavior. And then we get down next to them and we say, hey, you know, help me understand what's going on, why are you doing this? And, um, and the students like, oh, I got you engaged. And it's because I just engaged in problem behavior. And so, you know, it's a it's it's a nice response to be able to, to be caring about the student. But sometimes we're we. We would be better off by saying, hey, you can request my attention more appropriately, rather than flipping a desk over for me to come over and provide you attention and figure out, can we can we, um, teach the student more appropriate ways that are going to, you know, in the long term, pay off for them more effectively in accessing attention than engaging in these negative behaviors. Um, so back in twenty eighteen, we took a look at, um, how many of the referrals entered into the school wide information system. Had motivation, um, listed as unknown, um, or I think it or blank or something like that. And at the time, I think it was thirty three percent of the referrals that had been entered. Um, were they didn't have there was no way for anyone, anyone to know why the adult thought a student might have done that behavior. And so we just recently looked at those numbers for the last school year, Four twenty five. And it's right around. It's just under twenty nine percent now of the referrals entered still say unknown or um, or it's blank basically. Well, that's an improvement though, which is an improvement. A little bit of improvement. Slight improvement. Yes. Yeah. There were four point six million referrals entered and it was uh, like one point three million of them had no motivation listed. So you couldn't really use them for the kind of decisions that we're talking about today. So, um, if we want to continue on that path of improving the way that people collect that information associated with some sort of behavioral event, um, what are some of the things that you use to, um, to teach people about the benefit of, um, function based thinking, like you've been talking about, um, in general education settings? Um, and not just when you're talking about students who have an IEP or are, um, in special education, receiving special education services. So, uh, we've created the, uh, some e-learning modules and a training sequence called basic FBA. And so with my colleagues, um, Kathleen Strickland Cohen and Sheldon Lowman, um, we've developed and research these over the years and, um, all the we developed some e-learning modules. I had a collaboration with, um, the Kansas, uh, Technical Assistance Systems Network, and they we were able to create these e-learning modules that you can find on basic fiba.com. Um, and so we have two strands of training and both basically the trainings are, are one, can we train more people to be able to do functional behavioral assessment. You know, on the more formal side, um, with an idea that could we even get more people so that we can do it, you know, as more of a general education or early special education intervention? Not the worst case scenario. Um, you know, we're up against the wall with ten days of suspension. So we have a behavior specialist series. And then we also have what we call a school wide training series. And that's intended more for, uh, like general education teachers to train with your entire school staff. And so there's only two modules involved in that. One is understanding behavior, and then the other one is function based interventions to put these two together. Um, and so the first modules, you know, familiarizing people with this ABC framework and being able to understand function of behavior. And in that module we actually make some links to what you were just describing and say, hey, if you can understand this, this might help you be more effective in filling out that possible motivation box so that hopefully we can continue to get better data and people, you know, having more confidence, because a lot of times people see that box on their discipline referral forms, but they're not sure what to do with it and they don't get training on it. Yeah, I'm not trained to assess that. I don't know exactly. Yeah. So we, uh. Um, so that's one avenue for training, but we, we really emphasize, like, you know, we can expose people to the, the, the ABC constructs and thinking about functional behavior, but we really, really encourage, like, practice applying it to a couple kids that you're working with that you might be struggling with. Because anytime you practice it, you know, it's going to you're going to become more fluent with it and understand it more better. So, um, we have that that ABC tracker form is like the homework task that we ask, um, you know, participants to take. And if you have a school, you know, team or a school wide effort to train this, we'd encourage, like pick a student and, um, you know, pick a time of day that you're struggling with the student, um, for the next week or two, track that data and bring it back to your, your grade level team or your, um, you know, whatever team that you might be meeting with that you could talk about and brainstorm interventions and think about. Um, you know, are there any patterns around the triggers of behavior? The function of behavior that you could, um, you know, put some interventions to and, um, and, you know, for a lot of people, it's just slowing down. You know, when you have thirty kids in your classroom and you're pulled in a million different directions all the time. And, um, you know, you know, the students frustrating you, but you just don't have a waking second to like to, to sort of pay attention to you or a framework for knowing how to do that. And so the idea is that, you know, if a behavior occurs, just take a note. What was the behavior, what triggered it, what was the response. And when you get a moment, jot it down. And then if we can get six or seven occurrences, maybe you can start seeing some patterns. And then you start seeing the light bulbs come on. And they're saying, oh, well whenever I hand them this worksheet, maybe I could change the worksheet a little bit. And now now maybe the behaviors are reduced and it's like, okay, we didn't have to do any formal FBA. We didn't have to take it to tier two. The teachers figuring out some more strategies that they can use just by slowing down a little bit. And some teachers get this intuitively, and others, you know, need a little nudge to to start thinking functionally. Totally. Yeah. It's exercising a different muscle. Mhm. Uh, well this has been super helpful. So helpful in giving just kind of the, a real basic understanding of what this thing is. Um, and helping. It's given me some language that maybe the functional behavioral assessment is the, uh, is the, um, more formal thing that's tied to law. But function based thinking is something that we can do with everyone. And, um, and it can happen any time for any student. Um, and, uh, you don't have to have some formal training to do it. You just have to understand maybe what function is, which we've talked about today, and what are the ways that you can start to implement that thought process into into your classroom. That ABC tracker is a is a really cool, um, tool that you all have developed, and the trainings are excellent. I took them years ago just to kind of understand what this, um, concept is. And, um, you break it down in a super simple way. So I really recommend those, um, those modules that you were talking about. And we'll link to them. We'll have links for folks for sure. Yeah, for sure. But thanks, Chris, for joining us and helping us to understand what all of this means. Yeah. My pleasure. Thanks for, uh, thanks for the invitation. Of course.