Megan Cave 0:00 Dan, welcome back to Expert instruction, the teach by design podcast, where we dive deeper into the research surrounding student behavior by talking with the people implementing these practices where they work and with the students they support. I'm Megan cave. Janelle Hughes 0:16 I'm Danielle triplet, welcome back, Danielle. Megan Cave 0:19 Welcome back to the mainland. Janelle Hughes 0:20 Yes, I took a little I was on a getaway. Megan Cave 0:22 It was lovely. She went to an island. Janelle Hughes 0:25 No, no, it's not an island, not Costa Rica. Feels like an island, but feels like it's Megan Cave 0:28 Island adjacent. It feels like an island vibe. I we zoomed. I zoomed with Danielle. While she was on vacation, she allowed herself, what an hour's worth of work time while she was on vacation at Costa Rica, Janelle Hughes 0:41 prep for this. Yep, she was glowing. Megan Cave 0:44 She had her hair just ever so tousled, you're kind. She swung her camera on her laptop around to show me the view, which was incredibly traumatic, where we were there. I was very, very jealous. Janelle Hughes 1:00 Next time I'll bring away everything looked I felt Megan Cave 1:03 like you did. It's remote. Yeah, I felt like you did for a minute, in a way on that. I just wish that I could have been in that place with you instead of just virtually. But welcome home. Thank you. So glad to have you back here. Glad to be back today. We are talking with our new friend. Her name is Rose ivanone, and she's here joining us to talk about, well, it's an F word. Oh yes, it is in our work. She's here to talk to us about fidelity. And now, before you completely turn away from this episode and get turned off by the word, let me just say that it, we use the word because it's the word, it's the word we've been given. But I feel like Rose did a nice job of, I don't know, turning that around for us. So before, before we get pretty much into it, let me just introduce you really quickly to Rose. So rose is a research professor at the University of South Florida, and she's a board certified behavior analyst. She's another BCBA. You guys, yay, BCBAs. She's also the director of the University of South Florida Interdisciplinary Center for evaluation and intervention. What a name. They provide evaluations and consultations to folks with complex needs, and they're generally ages between runs the gamut Janelle Hughes 2:21 pre K to young adult, Megan Cave 2:23 yeah, young adult, while she's a researcher through and through, she still remains connected to the practical side of the work through professional development and training events that are offered to educators nationally and internationally. Yeah, and I really got that sense she she definitely wore her trainer hat in the in the conversation with us today, Janelle Hughes 2:46 trainer and coach hat, though, I was reminded when I was a coach, it was like, the thing she was saying, I was like, Oh yeah, I did that too. I did that too. Like, this is just best practice. And what, you know, a lot of the research from like Joyce and Showers on coaching tells us yes, it's still really relevant. So relevant. Megan Cave 3:01 So a couple of things that stood out to us. What stood out to you? We talked, well, a little bit about this idea, right? Of fidelity. Janelle Hughes 3:08 Yeah, rebranding, renaming fidelity. We talked about it. I know part of this past year on our team, PBI saps training team, has been doing a lot of webinars and training on the tiered fidelity inventory. So I just feel like I say that word all day, every day, but it's not a sexy word. No, I don't like, what does that really mean? We often say, Well, that just means, did we do things the way we said we do right? But she gave us the language that it's a plan assessment, yeah, it's a way to ask the question again, hold the hold the mirror up, to say, like, are you doing this? Are you and is it? And then why not? Like, is it just that? It's too complex. Like, this plan sounded great on paper, but in reality, when I've got 30 kids in my class and I'm, you know, all the things, yeah, can I actually do it? Is it feasible? Yeah, I love Yeah. I love that. Megan Cave 3:56 Rebrand Me too. Me too. It turns the emphasis off of the teacher and what they've done or not done, and more toward what's working in the plan and what's not working in the exactly or you. Yeah, the thing that I really liked, she shared with us a couple of basic strategies that you all can implement that would be a ways to assess your plans. And one way is to ask teachers to really focus on just four things that they can do in their classrooms. What are you doing to prevent the behavior from happening that you the behavior you don't want to see? What are you doing to teach the behaviors that you do want to see? What are you doing to reinforce the behaviors that are happening that get that student closer to the outcomes that you're trying to achieve. And then what's one extra strategy that you know that works really well for this student that would help with this plan? Janelle Hughes 4:53 What things? Yeah, totally bull. We got this doable. You know? What I love about this is that it reminds us I know Megan. You. And I've talked about tier three and being it's daunting, right? It feels urgent and stressful, and kind of this unknown area for you and me who are more kind of at the tier group, comfortable with the universal that piece. But what I'm learning more and more and seeing this is that Prevent, Teach, Reinforce, that's the basics of PBIS, right? Like, that's the foundation of good teaching, yeah, building systems and practices, yeah, and Megan Cave 5:24 it aligns with the things that you're that you're already doing, yes, in the same way that we talked about at tier two, you're doing you're just giving students extra practice with the school wide expectations, right? And so now at tier three, we're doing more focused work on individual students to really help them achieve what we know is possible for them, and we're just doing the same strategies as we've done before. We're preventing the problem behaviors. We're teaching what we want to see, and we're reinforcing it when it happens. Like, that's great, yeah, I love it. It's also doable. So join us. Listen in on this conversation with Rose ivanone And and I hope you guys take away some new things too. Rose, thanks so much for joining us today. Unknown Speaker 6:15 Thank you for having me. Megan Cave 6:17 Yeah, your name came up immediately. Danielle and I have talked before about this tier three topic, and we don't often know as much about this area as we would like to. And so when we were talking about fidelity of implementation at tier three, we reached out to our director, Kent McIntosh, Dr Kent McIntosh, and said, Do you know who we should talk to? And he said, Oh, you got to talk to Rose. And so we're really grateful for you to respond so quickly to us. I think the reason that he wanted us to talk to you was about this little fidelity assessment that you developed called the Tate. And so we, just before we get into the topic a little bit, we thought we'd start by just, we'd start there, and you could tell us and everyone listening, about this instrument that you developed, maybe, what does it stand for? T, A, T, E, what does that stand for? And why did you develop it? And what does it actually help teams assess, Speaker 1 7:21 okay, well, yes, the Tate stands for technical adequacy, adequacy tool for evaluation. Yeah, perfect. Megan Cave 7:32 Well, right off the top, yeah, it's just very natural, Speaker 1 7:35 yeah, exactly. And when we revise it, it can be called the Tate R or Tater and then you can remember, like a tater tot. Oh yeah, perfect, fun. Janelle Hughes 7:43 I love this. I like it. Megan Cave 7:44 I want to take the tater Tater Tot. Perfect. So what Speaker 1 7:50 is it? Yeah, develop this probably around 2009 2010 is when we first got the idea and developed. It is kind of a side product from a big research project we did on a functional behavior assessment process called prevent teach reinforce, and we realized, when we were doing some of this work in PTR, which is our acronym for prevent teach reinforce, is that schools really needed a lot of help with their FBAs and VIPs. We decided the first thing would be to they needed a way to figure out, are they actually developing high quality, technically adequate FBA VIPs and technically adequate? It's kind of like the what is the minimum you actually need to include in a complete and functional behavior assessment and behavior support plan and behavior intervention plan that would say you got it, you got all the things you really need for it to hopefully be aligned with research and what an FBA and a BIP was intended to do. Okay, so it helps the team, we hope evaluate, do I have what the field is saying should be included in a functional behavior assessment? VIP, Am I doing it at least to the level where minimum technical adequacy? Megan Cave 9:13 Here's the thing that I really like about it, is that you can say that it's technically adequate, like, like, it's sort of a researchy term, like the technical adequacy of something, you know, Holly, but I really like thinking about it. It's like, technically, it's adequate. Janelle Hughes 9:28 Oh, yeah, depends how you what, where you emphasize it, right? I like that. I like that. Megan Cave 9:33 Yeah, so. But I think that's really nice, though, for people like me, or for those of us who aren't board certified behavior analysts, you know that, what are the things that I need to make sure are included in order for this FBA, or the behavior support plan that I develop based on that FBA will actually achieve some improved outcomes. So just having that, it's almost like a bullet list where you check it off, like, Yeah, but. That, yeah, but it that includes that. So I think it's nice when a survey or an assessment like what you've developed does more than just tell you whether the thing is that you did is good or not, or how good it is, but it also can serve as like a as I'm developing this thing. I can check it off. I can use it as a tool to check off that I actually did it. I think Janelle Hughes 10:24 that's really nice. Okay, Rose, I'm curious you've reviewed in your time, probably lots of FBAs and VIPs in your work. And we'd love to hear about some of the things you've seen in the schools you've worked with that they're doing really well. And maybe, what are some elements that you find to be, you know, opportunities for growth or areas that are missing. Speaker 1 10:45 Sometimes defining the behavior can be a little bit challenging, because what I tell teams in schools is, what they seem to like to do is they think they're being efficient, and so they try to include every single behavior in one behavior. So like disruptive behavior becomes like 10 individual behaviors, each that could separately be defined disruptive behavior. They might say, well, they walk around the room, they yell out, they sharpen their pencil, they do things. They go, Well, some of those could actually be their own behaviors. And for functional behavior assessments, specifically, you want to try to be as come up with a really firm definition of a behavior that is of concern, because if you try to put too many different behaviors in one definition, some of those behaviors may be triggered by different events at the classroom, and some may be for different functions or purposes, depending on the context. That's one of the first things we teach. They do seem to develop a hypothesis statement that usually includes the information from the functional behavior assessment, and they'll include the antecedents for challenging behaviors. So they do Megan Cave 11:59 a really nice job of defining what the student is doing and why. And why they might be doing it, or at least hypothesizing why they might be. Speaker 1 12:06 Well, yes, they do, yeah, whereas mystic, they can have a great hypothesis, but they often don't link strategies with the hypothesis that are going to be part of the behavior support plan, and they don't describe it in enough detail so that a person kind of naive to the plan that just is going to pick up the plan, try to implement it like a substitute teacher implemented. They tend to ignore that. They don't provide information on how we're going to measure fidelity, how we're going to support the teacher, and some of the details we look for that in our Tate is, how are, how are they going to measure fidelity, like self assessment, observation, a combination of those, how frequently are we going to take that fidelity measure or get it? When are we going to review that fidelity measure? And then we also see another weakness, which is a lack of a progress monitoring plan, or how are they going to get data that lets us know, is this plan effective? Megan Cave 13:07 I read a bit of the research related to this assessment that you developed, the Tate, or what I will now call the tater tot from from this day forward, I read about it and what was, what was, you know, pretty clear to me, is that fidelity is a component of these behavior support plans, a plan, at least, to measure it, is missing from nearly every plan that you evaluate it. And so what I'm curious about is, why, in your opinion, why is fidelity such an important part of a behavior support plan, or at least making making it part of the plan. And then why do you think schools forget to add it in the plans that they design? Are there barriers to that in schools today? Speaker 1 13:57 Yeah, yeah, that's that's a lot. I wish we could figure this out and maybe fix it, but I think the first part, why is it so important? If you're using database decision making, and you don't know if the teachers implemented the plan and how accurate or the quality of their implementation of the plan, if it's being done as intended, you really don't have any way of making good next step decisions about what to do in related to that child being successful. So for example, if this, if you're looking at only student data after a plan is implemented or after a plan has been developed, and that child showing little change or no change at all, or even worsening behavior. If you don't know how well the teacher implemented the plan, you really can't make any decisions at that point because of the teacher not implementing the plan and the chat. That's why the child might be showing little work of behavior change. We don't know if that plan is a good planner. Back then, sometimes we come up with plans that don't. Work. However, we have to know, is it not working because the teacher is implementing it correctly and we just did the wrong plan, it's not good for this child, or is it because the teacher didn't do it the way it was intended and actually might have inadvertently worsened the situation in some way? So just all the part of MTSS, and whether you're in tier one, tier two, tier three, fidelity is such a big part of that database decision making. So if the behavior plan is being implemented with fidelity and the child is not responding, then we know, okay, we can now. We have to change the behavior plan. But if we don't have that information, we don't know if the behavior plan needs to be changed. Why does this happen? I have lots of theories, but I think a lot of times, especially if it's a child with an IEP, so it's special ed, the FBA and VIP becomes a form to be completed for compliance. Many states, either the state designs like a state form, or districts design their own forms, or they use things that now are like, like online kind of forms, and pay for that. Not all those forms even include a question about fidelity. So whether or not they're like, really expert experts in this if the if it's not there in the form, they tend to not add anything to their form. The other thing is, I don't think fidelity is thought about as part of this process. I think a lot of times it's kind of like this, FBA bip, we complete this form, we complied with it. It's one and done, and they don't see the whole thing as a problem solving process or a dynamic process that we're going to continue to modify and refine until either that child is successful no longer needs individualized support. So we can then primarily have them accessing tier one or tier two supports. They should be doing well. They're getting tier three supports as well. That's not really kind of the routine of a lot of places, especially for tier three. They also sometimes don't understand what fidelity actually means, and that's probably a lack of skills, because there's times when I have presented and talked about fidelity, and people like, Well, what do you mean by fidelity? They don't understand that there's a teacher implementation issue that we have to know. Did the teacher implement the plan? They get kind of confused about, oh, the zamfidelity is maybe Jake's name. Megan Cave 17:36 And then it does sound a little bit academic. You know what I mean, Janelle Hughes 17:41 maybe a lot academics, yeah, Speaker 1 17:44 I agree. I agree. Yeah, we try to stay away from treatment integrity, which is how it started, because treatment, yeah, we don't do treatment in school. Megan Cave 17:55 Yeah, it's mostly, did you do the thing you said, yeah, exactly, Janelle Hughes 17:59 exactly I do describe it, right? Did you do to what extent? Yeah, how much? Yeah. What I've Speaker 1 18:04 sometimes called it is the plan assessment. We're evaluate plan and sometimes that helps teachers feel it's not like a critique of them. Yeah? Are some issues where teachers feel it's a chance for somebody say, I got you, you're not doing your job, or they feel that way. So we don't want Janelle Hughes 18:23 that to happen. Doesn't feel good. Speaker 1 18:24 Yeah. The other thing is, often, like we said with it's a one and done, the plans seem to go put into before it used to be, you know, file cabinets with the student folder. Now it might be an online file, but teachers don't see these plans as meaningful or useful or even feasible, especially if they lack the detail, or the teachers not really included in developing kind of like a lesson plan or something for that, and so they don't actually look at the plan. Yeah, I think blood and Neil and I think their research was in 2007 but it might be, you know, a different year. So don't kill me. Okay, okay, we won't hold you to here, but they did a technical adequacy study, and they also followed it up with some interviews with the teachers to ask them, how did they use the behavior intervention plans. And the majority of the teachers said, we don't even refer to them after they are developed, because they're not like, real to us, or they don't include anything. And so when they were asked, like, well, what kind of strategies do you do? Then it's more ad hoc. It's like, what they they should do, which is by reprimands or something else. And so that's why I always when I coach and work with districts, I say, you know, teachers are doing the best they can. And the issue is we really need to support teachers more and coach provide more coaching. So what we do at tier one and being able to make sure that they understand and work with plan. Plans with them that are feasible, not complex or with a large quantity of strategies, but simple things linked to the hypothesis that they're able to do, and they're part of developing and then helping them to continue to look at how it's going and the data so they understand how important all of this is and how together. Megan Cave 20:21 There are certain times, I think too, where we talk about coaching and the value of a coach in this work, not just at tier three, but in PBIS implementation overall. And I think there are some things that where it might be less apparent that coaching would be useful. And there are other times where it just smacks you in the face and you go, you actually don't know how to do this. Megan, you don't know how to do it. So maybe get someone to help you figure this out, you know? And I think this is an area where it sounds like a coach would make a world of difference. Janelle Hughes 20:51 Yeah, I'm just thinking back to when I was teaching your years back, and, you know, yes, I did. I could have used a coach. I could have used someone we're helping remind me of these strategies, because sometimes you're like, Oh, we did this plan, we have this in place, and then in the moment, it just all goes away and you react and you're not utilizing those things. Speaker 1 21:10 Yeah, yeah, as you're saying, that's, that's one of the barriers, I think, is that, since they don't think about fidelity, when they do start thinking about it, they are at a loss of how to carve out the time to do this, because that inspire requires extra work on somebody's part. And if we could like work on that coaching part, that's like I said, some teachers find it to be a little bit scary if you're coming in to observe them. Megan Cave 21:39 Oh, right, yeah, that's like, the worst. My worst nightmare is having someone like watch me work right? It's a Janelle Hughes 21:44 little intimidating. That's what I like to call a plan assessment. I like this language done Speaker 1 21:52 in our Prevent, Teach, Reinforce, model, and then other research grants that I've had where we have coaching, we talk about it's not about you and your implementation it's more about is this plan working? So in order to know if the plan's working, we have to kind of get an idea of how you're implementing it and how you're seeing it's working. Megan Cave 22:11 And what's your experience implementing it? Speaker 1 22:13 Yeah, we a lot of self reflection in fidelity, where, when we and we always provide a debriefing, coaching, feedback session after we if we do an observation, and the first thing we'll ask the teacher always is, what what's working with this plan? Like, tell us a success, either what we saw today or earlier this week or even last week. Just tell us something that's okay. We're working well with this plan. And then we'll confirm that, and then we'll ask them if, instead of as saying, Well, you didn't do this right, or you didn't do this right, they will then ask them, Well, what was what's challenging about this? What do you find difficult to do? And so it's less about I'm not doing it, but more about this plan was too tough right for me to remember to do this, and we've approached it in that way, which is a more like we're partners. We're trying to figure out how to fix this plan so it can be the best plan that might actually work for this child, and also help you. Teachers are more willing to say, I didn't do this because it's just too much. I thought I could do it, but I can't do it this many times I can't reinforce that many times, or I can't remember to ski in the room as often as it says, then we have something to say. Okay, well, let's figure out how often you can do it, and maybe we can shift this plan a little bit and refine it and see if it works better. Janelle Hughes 23:35 Yeah, I love that. I mean, you've got to make things that are doable and feasible for the educators. If it's so complex that it's not going to happen, then fidelity goes right out the window. Yeah, and Speaker 1 23:44 that's what I would like to see, is that every teacher has a behavior coach that can help them and their equal partners. So it's not the behavior coach coming in telling the teacher what to do, but instead they're working together and partners. Megan Cave 23:57 Yeah. I mean, if folks have an opportunity to we spoke with Jess Olsen last month in her work in one district where they did that. She was her and two other colleagues, or just one other colleague. Janelle Hughes 24:10 It started with one, starting they add one, and they Megan Cave 24:13 added a third, and they were, they were in a very large district, and there were three of them working in general education settings, helping to coach school teams, to then work with individual teachers on how to do this. So listen, give that episode a listen. When you have a chance, if you're looking for an example of how that can work, that's great. Janelle Hughes 24:37 Yeah, Rose, you talked a little bit about this in terms of sometimes it's assessing, like, is this plan feasible? Is this too complex? Like, I like that sort of positive sandwich too, of starting with like, what's working well, what are some challenges? But what would you say are some way, some simple strategies, or ways that schools can assess the fidelity of implementation, or do that plan assessment? Are there some. Basic things that you're like. Here's a bulleted list. Here's some some key things to keep in mind for folks. Speaker 1 25:06 Well, it's a little tough at the individual level. I mean, you can make it simple. I've seen one form where just ask the teacher one question, to what extent do you think you implemented the plan with fidelity this past week? You know something as small as that, that's all you have time to do. That's better than nothing, right? Probably enough information to make good database decisions. I like the idea of having a checklist that provides an abbreviated version of the plan. So what we usually do, and that's what we train coaches to do, if they come and try to learn, our model of FBA VIP is that you look at the plan and you identify what are the primary adult behaviors that would be observed doing this strategy. And we also don't do tons of strategies and Prevent, Teach, Reinforce. For example, we only required them to have four behavior strategies in their plan. One to prevent the behavior, one to teach the new behavior, one to reinforce that new behavior with the function of their target behavior, and then a different way of responding to the target or challenging behavior so that it doesn't get inadvertently reinforced with the function in any form that helps to make it simple. So then you're spending your time talking about how this is going to be implemented. If you have the detail, you can then check off what are the primary adult behaviors that we would need to see in order to know this plan is being implemented? So you end up with maybe two or three things under each strategy that are crucial, that's easy to turn into a self assessment where a teacher can do it, and in fact, some teachers will tell us they really like it because it serves them as a prompt or a reminder of what they're supposed to do. I've actually had in one state where I've trained people to do these. They came with their pair of professionals. They said, look what we do with the fidelity checklist. And they put them on laminated cards. So they kind of thick and small, put on laminate cards. And their para educators, as well as the teachers, had like a lanyard. And with their ID, of course, and on the other side of your ID, they have the fidelity checklist, absolutely know what they're supposed to do. The other thing is, we don't do plans for the entire day, because that's so overwhelming for teachers. We always ask teachers pick one routine that you're thinking you can implement a plan and you would like to see the behavior that you want to see increase in the behavior that you aren't finding so great, the challenging behavior you want that decrease. So this way they might only be doing that plan for a 20 minute or 30 minute routine, and that's more doable and easier for them to check off. Yeah, I did this. I didn't do this. Yeah, you have like that. Somebody could also then, like a coach, can kind of observe maybe once a week, then provide that performance feedback. I recall the positive sandwich, so that we can you to work on this and see what can we start trimming some things so that it's not as intrusive for you, even if it's a simple plan, maybe we start reducing some things, because that's also part of it, besides looking at how successful things are going or going, that's some of the stuff we do. The other thing is, if you coaches are going around and they're in rural areas or large geographic areas, with technology now, teachers can record either audio, video, record their implementation, uploaded on a secure box, and then the coach can listen to it or observe it in another time when they have a few minutes in their office and able to provide feedback Megan Cave 28:51 that all feels doable Janelle Hughes 28:52 to me. I really love you know you're reminding me rose when I because I was a PBIS coach for about five years, and I did something similar in our district we were teaching, not not the same content, but something we wanted everyone to remember about interacting with kids. And we did that. We had cards. They were laminated, and the idea was that they wore them on their key chain, because every teacher out there always has their lanyard with their tag and the key to get into the building and the bathroom and all that. And it was, it just made it easy, right? It simplified it. It's like, oh, here's this friendly reminder. And the kids see it too. That's okay. Like, it's, yeah, yeah. Megan Cave 29:27 And this idea of having just four things, and maybe a designated part of the day where you're doing those you're sure to focus on doing those four things is also really doable. Like, it's, I don't know, I think that it makes this whole concept that feels heady and academic, this fidelity, or what did you call it, treatment Speaker 1 29:49 plan, assessment, or the more kind of Megan Cave 29:55 teacher friendly, yeah, that I like your friendly term. It makes even that for. Feel more, I don't know, implementable, Janelle Hughes 30:03 yeah, achievable, Megan Cave 30:04 yeah, yeah, yeah, we got that, I think. So let's put on our little hats here, where you're going to be a coach for just a second, and you're going to be talking to the people that are out there right now that are in it and trying to do this work. And they they now know they've realized they are one of almost 100% of schools who have neglected to add fidelity, measuring fidelity of the plan implementation as part of the actual behavior support plan. So what, what are, where do they start? What do they do? What are the things that you would recommend? Where do they start? To make sure that this is a regular component of the plans that they design moving forward? Speaker 1 30:46 Yeah, yeah, that's good. You said moving forward because it would be too overwhelming Megan Cave 30:51 to try go fix Oh, don't go back. Don't go we always Speaker 1 30:55 tell them that we don't do that. So I think the first thing is they want to think about how they where their district is, and their knowledge and understanding of fidelity, so they would need to probably do some professional development at first try get an idea of here's what, what we want to do, and here's how we want to do and this is the rationale why we want to Start thinking about how we're going to measure fidelity, and there can be some predetermined ideas on how they might want to do it, but might be good. You know how in tier one, you always try to get the buy in from the staff right, and they give ideas for the what the expectations would be for the school, and that way you get a little bit more input from everybody. So it's not just top down, but it's kind of shared. This could be something that they would ask teachers, people who could be coaches. Let's talk about what kind of things. How will this be doable? Who would be collecting fidelity? Can we do self assessments? Can we follow up with coaching and stuff like that? How would that happen? Do we want to develop a generalized checklist that could be used with everyone, and you just individualize it and tailor it for that particular plan, that particular teacher that said that there's something there? So you want to get those components kind of, you want to get a consensus on that, because I don't know the same thing if you go in, kind of make this teacher feel like, Oh, this is a bad thing to do. And they're really checking off of, you know, I'm going to be fired or something. People resist change, even if they agree with the concept. If it's something that they feel it's going to add more to their plate, they tend to be a little resistant. So having them included in a district wide decision, it, to me, would be very important, and having a task force that would plan how this would be rolled out in that district in the future, or the school or, depending on, you know, how large the district is, this portion of the district. So I always say, you know, I know you want to do everything, 100% of the stuff, 100% of the time, but it really sometimes backfires. And so the, you know, the slower route sometimes works, where let's start with what is doable, a small thing, and then continue to add to it. So that's what I would recommend. Janelle Hughes 33:15 I love that advice rose. I think starting small in this work at any tier is is generally less best practice, because it's doable. It can start small. And then scale up, build from there. Megan Cave 33:25 Love that. Yeah, exactly. That's helpful, yeah. And just reminding people that, again, this is like you were saying. You want to do it all you want to you want to make sure that it's the you're offering the best kind of support that you can. But we're also talking right now with you about what's technically adequate for for each of these plans and and so even something small, like, just like, I think originally we were talking, you could ask a teacher, how's it going? Have you looked at the plan? What's working well, what do you find challenging? Just even asking those questions might be enough to get you started as a team to think through some of this. But also, I think that you make a good point about looking at as a district level decision, that this is something that we want to invest in, because that coaching, the certification, the knowledge and expertise around developing behavior support plans based on the functional behavior assessment is is a real skill, and if someone at the district level has that skill, and you can offer that as a resource to school level teams. I think that's also really important. So looking to the district for that kind of decision would be, would be a good, a good move to do also rose we thank you for your time today teaching us about fidelity, about plan assessment. Sense. We're going to call Janelle Hughes 35:00 it that kind of adopting that, Megan Cave 35:03 yeah and and how we can do this in simple ways, so that we're sure that people are actually doing the thing that we hoped they would do before we start making decisions about student level outcomes. So thanks so much. Unknown Speaker 35:17 Well, thank you for having me. Yes. Transcribed by https://otter.ai