Expert Instruction Template

00:00:05 Speaker: Welcome back to Expert Instruction, the Teach by Design podcast, where we dive deeper into the research surrounding student behavior by talking with the people, implementing these practices where they work, and with the students they support. I'm Megan Cave. I'm Danielle Triplett. Can't believe I said it. Danielle. You did it. Megan. I did it. We were just talking about how it's been so long. Guys. Welcome back. Happy new school year. Happy new school year. Here we go. Hit the ground running, I know. I know, it's been too long, guys. It's, uh. It's nice to be back together again. Um, talking with all of these people who are doing such incredible work. Oh my gosh, we're so excited for our theme this year. I know, I know with our audience being educators, like we love a theme. Yeah. Um, and Megan and I are big fans of it as well. So Megan, tell us about our theme for twenty six twenty seven. Yeah. So this year we're exploring the ripple effects of PBIs. We all kind of come to this work at least initially, right? Behavior is in the acronym. And so it's easy to think that, uh, that's all it is that it's a focus on student behavior and how to be positive. Mhm. Well, and back in the day in the nineties, when doctor Bob Horner and colleagues created this framework, that's what it really was. It hadn't expanded to to where it's grown to. Well, as it's been implemented for as long as it has across as many organizations, uh, schools, districts, states, we've learned that PBIs actually starts to have a ripple effect that you start maybe by thinking about student behavior and all the things that you can do to improve those outcomes in your school. But what you find is the longer you do it, the more that you notice some positive impacts in other places too. Yes. Research proves it. And so this year, that's our theme, is to explore all of the different ripple effects that, um, that come to our mind related to PBIs implementation. So today we wanted to kick off that theme by talking with some of our regional partners from the National Center on PBIs. So we've got, I'll start and you can help if a larger group today. Yeah, it was a big group. So from the northwest PBIs group, we've got Jessica Swain Bradway. Yes. And from Midwest, Midwest, we had, uh, Kelly Perales and Brian Meyer and Brian Meyer. And then representing our northeast, uh, regional group was, um, Brandi Simons. Yes. And with the four of them, the conversation is super rich because they've been at this work for a super long time. And we hear from them today all the things that bring them back to this work, but also what they've noticed in the districts, the states, the schools that they've worked with, and the reasons why those places keep coming back, how this thing keeps sustaining itself year after year. Yeah, it sure does. You know, one thing that's standing out to me, um, was something that Jessica said about the idea of she made an analogy to reading. Right. Like once we learn to read, we, we retain that, right? We don't all of a sudden stop learning, knowing how to read. And PBIs works off very much the same, right? Like once you learn how to do PBIs and that framework is in your mind the ripple effects carry out in our lives. And I just thought, wow, that really clicked for me of like, and, and especially because we often make the analogy that PBIs does impact things like, um, um, attendance or academics or other things, which we've talked about. So reading, I mean, that analogy just fits, but it really is like, I don't know, that clicked for me. I've never really thought of it that way. And that's what's different about PBIs is that it's not this curriculum and you go purchase something, right? Most of it is given away for free through federal grants and, and other ways to do that. And that that's really the idea of it is to build capacity in, in the adults doing this work. That's right. That was something that really stood out in what Brandi had shared, um, in her work in the northeast. Um, she was sharing a ripple effect she noticed is the way that it brought together state leadership, um, as a community. And so that group of folks have their, their own priorities, the things that they need to attend to. And through the work of implementing PBIs, they actually realized that the framework and the way that they had, um, operationalized and created systems and practices that it actually helped them to achieve some of the other things that the other work that they had going on around, um, legislation or policy, those kinds of things. And so, um, really one of the ripple effects that I hadn't thought about are the ways that PBIs can actually create community across organizations and people. And she had shared that it was so important to them, this group, this community group of state leaders, that even during times of turnover and transition, that they always seem to find another person to take the spot. Yeah. Love that, love that. I also want to call out. One of the questions we asked was why we what keeps us coming back to this work? Um, and I really love what Brian says. It resonated for me personally is that the values system of PBIs, which is really about, um, doing what's best for kids and, and thinking about what we can do that's proactive and preventative and really respectful of all humans. Um, that just really is what kept me coming back to it. Why I'm really dedicated my career to to PBIs as well. Mhm. And Kelly shared that if there was ever a time where, uh, schools, districts, states could use, um, a framework that, um, creates safer, more predictable, equitable spaces. It's now. And, uh, and so I think all of that can, is something that we can center ourselves on even during throughout this next school year. So she used the word nourishing too, which really, really, I love, I love that I found that to be really relevant for, for the, for. Oh, you guys, you're gonna love this episode, folks. Wait for you guys to, to listen in. It's really one of those that those where I don't know that I necessarily come away with a lot of like tangible strategies, but it really does. The conversation that we had, uh, with the four of them today was, um, the kind of thing that feels like a keynote where you leave feeling a little bit more inspired, a little more energized and ready to kind of hit the ground running this year. So that's our hope for you. So sit back and just listen and enjoy today.

00:06:35 Speaker: Well hi everybody. Thanks so much for joining us today. So glad you could all be here as our first guests for season. What did I say six. Is it season six? Yeah. Twenty six twenty seven school year. Yeah, we're doing it. It's fantastic. Thanks for having us. Yeah, yeah. Good to see you guys. Yeah. So you guys get to be the lucky guests to kick off our year long theme that we've got going this year about the ripple effects of PBIs. And we wanted to have you guys on as our regional partners to, uh, to just help out to describe what's going on here with PBIs and how it is that it can affect so many other facets. So maybe we'll just start there. Um, why why is it Brian, why is it do you think that PBIs has this ability as a framework to affect so many different facets within education? So, um, well, thanks for calling on me. Yeah. Well, I'm obsessed with this question. Oh, good. I am because the the essential elements of outcomes data systems, praxis and equity. Um, the that's a lens I think of which you can view anything that happens in schools and then break it down to understand more and either, you know, set yourself up for success or challenges you might have when I, when I, when I train, I often have that up and I say, I wish I had glasses that had those five circles and I just put them on and I say, give me anything you're facing, you know, is it, um, you know, parent perception or attendance issues or, um, you know, reading standards or whatever it is And we can look at it through sort of those five views and then what the center has done for, you know, twenty five years is now start to research. So how do we attend to each of those essential elements? What works, what doesn't work? Um, so we can then be more efficient and effective. Um, and it's, it's actually a really to me, a fun activity to do with teams. So what's on your mind? Great. Quickly, let's break it down. What are the outcomes, data systems, practices and equity elements of that. And then that can help us move forward with an action plan. Mhm. I think that's great. And um, I also think if we zoom out more, um, when we look at the human experience through different types of research and different fields of study, we over and over are prove the same thing. We need positive relationships need a predictable environment. Collaboration is very important. It's critical to like a cellular, like an evolutionary biology level. And and positive behavior supports gives us a that lens. Those those five elements gives us a lens to really be able to systematize those things as a priority. And we end up with compassionate systems. Although I don't know that the folks that originally started all this work, that's what they were thinking. And yet we, we find that we can use it in that way to actually prioritize the things that we need as human beings at a very basic level. I love that I was also thinking, as Brian was talking about as glasses, that we always think of the systems or see the system circle as pink. And so it's kind of it really is the rose colored glasses. And, you know, as I've worked with, you know, states or districts and they're thinking about scaling, which Jessica was just describing, Whether they're talking about it for academics or suicide prevention, or mental health support, or classic social emotional behavioral support, which is what we often think about with PBIs. Those systems features that we've learned so much about over the decades really enable them to implement whatever the evidence based practices are with high fidelity, and look at the data to see if it's impacting the people in the way we want it to. So I know I'm using your rose colored colored glasses metaphor, right? I don't know how all the colors would work, but the rose colored I can super get there. I love it. I would just add that we actually also have demonstrations and write about them in technical assistance briefs or published peer reviewed journals. Based on our research of the ways in which PBIs has expanded to impact other aspects of education, many of which have already been alluded to, but in particular around issues of mental health. We know that when done well, in combination with other system partners, it can further impact student outcomes and culture and climate within schools. Yeah. Yeah. Great point, Kelly. And a great segue to the next question really, because that's where we are going next. And so we're curious about what what you've seen is your four you know, four of you are really experts in this and have we have collectively decades of experience. And so curious to hear what some of the ripple effects you've seen in schools, districts or states that you've supported? What does that look like? Jessica, do you want to start us off there? Yeah. Kelly, of course, did a great job of teeing this up and reminding all of us that there is so much research showing the positive impact on all of the aspects, frankly, of, of student and adult behavior in schools. My favorite, um, recent illustration of, of the positive and something we weren't even thinking about or measuring. Um, was we, we had the good fortune to work alongside a district team in California really focused on reducing disproportionality and discipline. They did, they did. They got persistently. Their risk ratios for all groups are right around one point oh. I still kind of spy on them a little bit. That's okay. Let me, let me. Um, but what we didn't expect was that teacher attendance improved dramatically. And there was a middle school one, one of their middle schools was really struggling to get started. And the first few years teachers had to sub every single prep period because people were not coming to school. Adults were not they were so stressed. They were taking all of their sick days. And so by the end of four years, they stopped having to do that. And my last visit at the middle school, I had two teachers stop me and the teacher work room and say, we just got to tell you, this is amazing. We don't have to sub during our prep period anymore. And they were so grateful that that happened. We of course, we go back and we're like, is this true when you talk to the building administrator, he's like, yeah, this is great. This is amazing. Our attendance is better than ever. And that was my, that's my favorite personal experience so far because the we know as former educators what that means when you're taking all of your sick days and how stressed you are. So that was a pretty fantastic experience to get to be a part of. Earlier this morning, I had the privilege of chatting with Cecilia Liang, who is a former keynote for us, and she does a lot of work in the attendance space. And so we were having a conversation about how a lot of the work they do nationally with attendance is the same work that we do nationally with supporting kind of all elements of students behavior. And one of the things she mentioned was her favorite quotation, and I wrote it down. Not actually thinking of sharing it during this, but I'm going to do it because it was just so meaningful. So this was from Nadine Brooke Harris, who's the former California surgeon general. And she talked about from a lot of research on kind of the health aspects of implementation. Her quotation is educators deliver the daily dose of caring that addresses trauma. And so when we think about kind of what we do in Jessica's comments about these other impacts on teachers and impacts for students across areas, the work that we do in PBIs and MTS is the work of transforming schools to be better for educators, students. And I think when we do it well also for families. So it really is reaching all of those groups of folks who are so critical in our communities and in our society. So I just thought I would give Cecilia a shout out and thank her for sharing that quotation. That's now one of my favorites. Oh it's excellent. I love it. Danielle and I spend a lot of time talking to people about the work that they do, the impact that it's had, the outcomes they've seen. And it all really does come down to the the relationships that people are able to build. And I think it really highlights the fact that PBIs is a framework. Um, and it isn't directly related to one thing. It's, we're really in the business of this is how we do school. And when you do school this way, there are lots of things that change as a result. And I think it's that focus on relationship building and, um, belonging in schools and all of that that really does have such an impact on people wanting to show up, like you were saying, Jessica, but and not just teachers, but students, including families and making sure that your school becomes more of like a community base for people to, to get the resources that they need, the support that they need to continue in their educational journey. Yeah. Well, p p I s also has such longevity to it, right? I mean, it's something that's been here at the University of Oregon started, but it's the the ripple effect is big because it continues to grow. And it's, it's, I think one of the few things in education, those of us who've been around for a while that we see has real sticking power because it continues to evolve and, um, kind of keep up with the current research and needs of schools. Yeah. Yeah. Right. I, I describe it as, uh, the operation manual. So you're identifying your priorities and your goals. And that could be improving quality of relationships or engaging families or, um, you know, academic outcomes. But because it's a framework, it, it can help you ask the right questions and organize yourselves for them to how to, um, we've had schools who are targeting, uh, what they're coming to the table with is we want to use, uh, trauma informed practices. And it's easy to see what the bigger goal is in a conversation, but they sort of have this narrow thought on what that means. Learn a practice. Do the practice. We've solved the problem. Um, and then they, they just you just get working. Don't treat that as separate from your best effort at that point. Point your best effort toward the bigger objective you have. Um, and then it can operationalize through the teaming structures, the professional development practices, the evaluation and data questions, um, how to get there. Um, Kelly and I had a colleague who is really a leader in community schools, and that was, I think the quote that, that he gave us. He said, we've been at the community schools for a long time, but this is the operations manual to achieve what our our philosophy was. And I thought that that was a pretty insightful way to remind ourselves that it's a framework, um, that's really quite adept at, um, helping you achieve your objectives. Yeah. Yeah, I would, I would say that the flexibility of the framework. And I mean, it's we just need the imagination, right? We work with village schools in Alaska. They're off the road system. Watching them adapt their work to really center the community. You know, the school serves the community and really elevating the role of families. Um, we know folks doing this work in Hong Kong, making adaptations to make sure it is a good contextual fit. We are, um, right now our team is working with a nonprofit called Connected Oregon Education or Cope. They're using the framework to build trauma informed teaching practices to work with Myanmar refugees who are living in Thailand because they cannot be in Myanmar right now. Yeah. And it's and to watch how these conversations and watch the amazing creativity of educators shifting within, Maintaining those critical features but shifting within to meet their local need. That's why we have I think that's why we have this longevity and why we see it continue to grow and flourish in in all types of different settings. But again, I don't think we were really thinking about that from the very beginning. The folks that were, you know, pouring their heart and soul into this in the nineties. Mhm. I think maybe something to just add to the conversation is, um, for me, the, the impact on adults inside schools, you know, this was all sort of, uh, the basis of creating consistency. And we know that when again, when done well, this can improve, uh, teacher perceptions of their own impact in the classroom. Um, but something that has stuck with me for a long time is, um, we used to call these folks the naysayers, which is probably not the right word to use anymore, but, you know, have a, have someone on your team who maybe doesn't believe in this work. And the number of times that I've had the experience of adults saying this has changed, you know, the way I operate or the way I even feel about my job. Uh, and so, you know, yes, we in the, in the early days, this was about student behavior, but it's always been about changing routines and procedures and practices for adults and frankly, adult behavior. Um, but I think when it impacts, you know, the adult perception of now, now I like my job better or now I feel better that I can do my job better or whatever it is. Um, I think that goes a long way. Um, and it's not just even about the getting the collective commitment, right? Getting the naysayer to now be on board or bought in. But it's really about, um, you know, that collective impact of everybody who's part of the system. Mhm. Yeah, absolutely. Kelly I've definitely used that line in lots of trainings I've done over the years, but that's what it is though. PBIs. I mean, ultimately we want to impact our students, but we start with doing that with the adults. Mhm. Mhm. That's the secret. That is the little the secret. It is the secret. And once you're in on it, it makes total sense. It's like, that's that's where it all begins is with us. Yeah. Yeah. Part of the reason why we wanted to focus on this idea of like, well, PBIs is the framework and there are certain things that you implement and what you do. Um, but that it ultimately affects so much of your school day. Um, and both at the school, the district and at the state level. And I know that as regional partners, you've worked at some of those higher levels at the district with states and even with groups of states that come together collectively. And so, and you've been able to do that successfully to help them both, not not just start implementing, but to scale up and then ultimately sustain that implementation over some of these challenging years that we've experienced. And so I'm curious how it is that you've been able to build a type of community amongst state leaders, and are there parts of this framework that they seemed more drawn to? Mhm. Yeah, it's such a good question. So at the national level. The centre on PBIs works directly with all of our states and territories, and so in some of our states they don't have a regional structure. But as you mentioned, you've got three of us, three regional centers here in the northeast. You know, every state and region thinks they're unique. But in the northeast we have itty bitty states. So like, I think we're legitimately a little bit unique. Um, so the implementation in the northeast has been supported by the National Center for as long as it had been in existence in a little bit. Even before that, you know, before there was officially a center funded in nineteen ninety eight, around twenty ten, we started having conversations about our tiny states struggling to have all of the resources and supports that they would need to be able to really lean into this work more fully and scale it. And so in twenty twelve, we officially formed a northeast network. And that network includes ten northeast states to less tiny Pennsylvania and New York. But everybody else relatively tiny. And that group has become since twenty twelve, this amazing community. So we meet monthly with state leaders from each of those states. They include folks in the state departments of Ed or agencies of AD or whatever they call it, in their state. They also include the folks who are leading training and technical assistance. And there's been some turnover, obviously, over those those years, but we've had a really cohesive, consistent group. And when someone retires, they appoint their successor. So it's even though there has been turnover, it's like a really close community. And in that they not only support implementation within each of their states. So the northeast states support over four thousand schools, but they support each other. And so where they are learning different lessons about how to move content into policy, or into state law, or building implementation connected to different priorities, whether it's inclusion in Maine or mental health and suicide prevention in Rhode Island. They're able to lean into that and then learn from each other. So collectively, we grow together. Um, I think one of the things that as a regional network, we've been able to do is have them guide us in where there are needs that they can't meet within each state. So for example, we realized across our region we were losing training capacity because trainers were retiring. And so we were losing some of the expertise. So we were collectively asked to develop a training of trainers. So we now run that for the region. And now some states have taken that and their trainers are running their own state level one. So our focus is the region has been really around building capacity so that states can do the work more easily. And then states are focused on doing their work to make it easier for districts to implement. And districts that are working to make it easier for schools who are working to make it easier for teachers. So there's this very intentional kind of cascade of implementation. And because again, we're feeling kind of a unique need across these tiny states. Our focus is training of trainers, training materials that folks can take and contextualize. And so we've really worked to hear their needs and build into those across more than a decade. So I feel like I just talked a lot, but it is that kind of implementation cascade from like country to region to state to district to school to classroom that we love playing a role in at the regional level. Yeah, something I would add to that too is a thing. It's a theme that I see across everyone that's doing PBIs work. People are giving this stuff away. The resources, the trainings, often like you can go to so many different websites, regional websites, state level websites, even district websites. Sometimes you can go to these sites and you can download their manuals and their, um, matrices. And, uh, you can watch a video or sign up for a webinar. All so much of this because it's an evidence based framework. It's coming out of really quality research over decades that people are just like, you should do this. And we believe in it so much that we're just going to give it to you. You don't have to like you don't have to do it any other way. If you don't want to, you can just download the stuff and try it. You know, there's no gatekeeping involved. So I think the other thing that you're pointing out in your story, Brandi, is this sense of community that happens. I think it it can happen organically. It sounds like you all have done a really great job of fostering it. Um, but when we've talked to schools and even district level folks, they're always like, well, I want to talk to other high schools that are doing this. Yeah. Or what are they doing in, um, I'm here in the Valley in Oregon, but what are they doing up in Seattle or, you know, like there's just and I can only imagine, Jessica, in your work in Alaska, like how big a deal that is to try and connect really remote places and make them feel like they're part of a statewide, um, project really. And so I think that this sense of community and building it as a contextual way of doing schools where you are is a really big theme that, um, comes up over and over and over as we talk to people. Totally. I would say that the relationships are, are paramount. And we really, I'm sure I know folks on this call, I'm lucky enough to get to know all of you, but putting relationships first and really epitomizing the idea of from restorative practices world that all humans are worthy of relationship and the relationship is, is the thing we work to protect and invest in. And I would say I also feel confident just knowing folks on this call, on this interview today that, um, there is a stay at the table mentality that has been holistically adopted by folks who are, um, kind of loosely or formally officially affiliated with the center that we are staying at the table because we know the cycles of discretionary funds, we know the cycles of the state and federal kind of guidance and attention or lack of attention. Um, I feel lucky as a nonprofit, we are very unique. I think we're probably the only nonprofit that I know of doing this specific type of work. And we're pretty nimble. We can, we can hop around, we don't have, um, an entity telling us what we can or can't do because our board is pretty fantastic. Um, and we are part of the give it away mentality. We are part of that. This stuff is already out there, and our job is to help you sort through it. And building those relationships is really critical to, um, especially in kind of trying to bridge some cultural and language gaps and building those relationships. I mean, people aren't going back to ask brandy questions because she's not an amazing human. She's an amazing human first. And she's putting that out there and then has all this amazing research and resources behind her. So the relationships are really where it all starts and has to go back to. I want to thank you, Jessica. That was, um, it just seems like an important theme of all of the things that we're talking about. And, um, you know, as Brandy talked about, there's also that piece of building capacity and building the systems and that cascade of, of implementation approach. Um, you know, like we're all saying here, you know, the content. Yes, we keep iterating and as we learn research to practice and practice informs research. Um, and, you know, in our technical assistance roles, as we support states, uh, we've seen some really good examples of in some larger states where they do have regional offices of education building up those regions to support their districts and, um, then their schools. And we've seen growth, uh, over the years of the number of schools implementing and reporting implementation fidelity. And we've also seen sustainability. Um, I know I talked in our earlier conversation about an example where, um, you know, we even had some school climate transformation grant awardees from twenty fourteen who continue to do the work. Um, you know, what are we doing to twelve years later? Um, you know, um, that's pretty powerful when it's couched in, you know, support from the to center to the states to the regions, to the districts. Uh, and I think that helps kind of keep that ripple effect going and also keep the sustainability piece there. Do you think it's the support that they, um, that they get that keeps them, that makes them feel like, okay, this is something I want to do or is there something, is there something else that's going on? Like, why is it that for some, it's like they keep, they keep coming back to it or they say, we're gonna do it. Why? Like, why is that? Because we also hear from other schools and districts that are like, we used to do it and we don't do it anymore. Mhm. What is it? Do you think that sustains it at that level? I'll kick us off with a couple of thoughts, and then other folks are going to fill in with more brilliant things. First one is it works. Yeah. Like once they start implementing, it works like it helps students, it helps families, it helps educators. But I think the other thing, and it's coming through the comments from all of us is It's a very different approach to support a state or a district or a school in implementing PBIs, because it's about building local expertise and local capacity. So other approaches rely so heavily on experts who come in and they train on the thing, and they consult on the thing and they sell the thing and then they go away. This is a model where, as you already pointed out, largely materials are free. Occasionally folks are paying for somebody's time depending on their state funding model and support. But the emphasis on all of the training, technical assistance, coaching, all of those pieces is building local expertise and capacity. So not only do they experience that it works, but they have the skills to keep doing it. When the coaching or the funding starts to fade, they can do it themselves. So I think it's a very different approach than a lot of other models that are out there. I do think sometimes, I mean, we've all met folks that are reticent to work with us because we're not Uber expensive. We're not selling workbooks or posters or we're saying, no, no, we want to learn this thing. And when folks really learn it, it almost becomes like reading. You can't stop reading. There's no adult that I know that walks past the sign is like, oh, I, my eyes forgot how to read so that when you build that capacity and folks really, because it is a systems change, they're learning things that they can't unlearn. And we've also all probably experienced someone bringing p b I s to a new location and working to to build it or refine it there as well. So it, it works and it works for all the various reasons that Kelly reminded us earlier, all these fantastic benefits that we get from actually adhering to the framework as intended. We, we start the work and we search with sustainability in mind and keep attending to that question and saying, well, what are examples of administrators who are more likely to sustain or oh, the the new tier fidelity inventory is more explicit in saying, um, how are the values and expectations for your framework connected to your school improvement goals? I mean, how many years have I seen places that have a action plan for their PBS work? And separately, they have a school improvement plan? Um, and that, that always was kind of bonkers to me that we would not see that as intentionally one in the same. And so I appreciate that that that language has been updated and we've been making use of that intentionally as schools are checking their fidelity to say, now let's, let's, let's map these steps to your school improvement plan, which we think would also then lead to sustainability as a continuous improvement process. Well, we're really you covered a lot of the next thing we're going to talk about, but I'm really curious about what keeps the four of you coming back to this work, not just professionally, but even personally. I know, Jessica, when we were kind of talking before you were sharing, and I feel this too, as a parent and just in my life, the way that once I learn PBIs, now, it really has a ripple effect on how I interact with people and how I live my life. So what keeps you coming back to this? Why do you think PBIs has such sticking power as the thing we continue exploring with schools, districts, state partners and others. Well, I don't know about everybody else, but I'm I'm a millionaire at this point. I've made so much money on school improvement, which is a huge joke. None of us are doing no, no work, obviously. Um, I, I mean, I get, I love seeing the positive changes happen with kids and adults. I mean, I have up close access to things that are just right within my value system. And I love it. Um, and it, it really fills my bucket even when I'm hopping from place to place and my flight is cancelled. And now I'm like hanging out in an airport and I'm gross and I just want to go home. That stinks. And, um, it's worth it because you get to have these conversations, you get to see the work happening and, and people's, we know it's changing people's lives, that it's changing the trajectory of students lives. And that's pretty much all I need. And don't tell my board because they still have to pay me. But that is really the most important thing is that you get to see it up close and you understand how it's contributing to the quality of life for the people that are getting to experience those positive benefits. I want to jump on a point you're making there, which is early on, many, many years ago, I was drawn to the work because I'm just interested in asking the question, what works? And, you know, time, one time, two analysis or making the best form for something and getting into the work of forms can solve a lot of problems if they're well designed. If getting into the work, though, it was taught to me early that there's a this starts with a value base. You know, this is about, you know, the humanity and how we want to treat people. And then what is the most effective and efficient way that matches with that? How respecting the individual, the youth, the teacher, um, the family member. And so I remember just feeling like that's home for me. So if I'm going to spend my career working on improving systems, um, the fact that it's based on a value structure, um, meant the world to me. And so even like, you know, Kelly in our, in our Midwest team, you know, we were talking before about giving things away. One of the values that's explicit in our organization is community service that we don't want things behind paywalls. Um, we are proud to watch everything that Jessica does and to grab that and change a word or two, um, and then give it back so that she can do the same. I don't know, she might be winning in the giving away phase, but that there's just pride in that to be, um, to be giving things away that will far outlive those of us on the call here, our careers. So, um, it's, it's very rewarding. I just think that, again, another theme that we've talked about today is if ever there were a time in schools where we needed a safe, predictable, consistent, nurturing, equitable environment, it's now. And we know that those things can be accomplished through this evidence based framework. And so that gets me out of bed every day. Yes. Love that. Kelly. Yes. Yeah. That's almost the point we need to end on. So I'm hesitating to. So we need to come back to Kelly. Okay. I mean, the other thing is I was sitting here thinking. I was just thinking like, yes, yes, yes, what everyone else is saying. And then like, I'm such a geek about data and that's behind everything we've been saying. But like, in addition to seeing the individual impact on a student or an educator or a family, whether it's my kid or somebody else's kid, it's also getting to see the impact and the scale of the impact. Like at the National Center, we are directly thanks to regional groups and states and territories supporting over twenty eight thousand schools. We have PBIs happening in every U.S. state and territory. We have PBIs happening globally. I mean, the impact is just enormous. And in a talk I did a long time ago, I drilled it down to like how many seconds of the day were impacted for the students in each of those buildings. And it's in the billions. Like we have. The impact that we were just talking about is it's such a scale of importance to quote Rob. Mhm. Um, it's, I think it's just, it's so motivating and inspiring to be a part of that. And we really are transforming schooling and education for the adults, for the students. And at a scale that's kind of mind blowing. Mhm. So going back to what Kelly said about the kind of thought they're thinking about creating positive, predictable, equitable learning environments for everybody at this scale of social importance. That's amazing. Really incredible. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for all of the work that you guys have done to, to create those spaces for the students and those seconds that they've been affected in their educational lives. But also, just personally, I've worked with the four of you and so many others within the center for a really long time. And to see that the work has shifted, like the way that we do PBIs has evolved over time as our country has, our culture has as school has, like the way that you all have created, um, a national center that supports this work so cohesively is, and has been sustained for so long, is really remarkable and has affected the work that I do quite a bit. So thank you for the things that you all do. Thank you Megan. I some things that Brandy said really resonate and, and kind of piggyback off of what you're saying. This is not I like to say to people, this is not your grandma's p b I s and, and I think it's really important to stress that, um, we have learned how to stretch the framework or elevate different components that are important to the community and the school that we are in an age of truly being more student and community centered than ever before. We have learned more about psychology as a as a collective in the past few years because of all the craziness in the world globally. And so we really, it really is not where we started thinking of, well, be really explicit with behaviors, just like we are with reading or create a system. Here we go. We have the amazing people on this call and the partners with the center. they've really been able to highlight the flexibility of this framework. I think that's incredibly important for the evolution and for the longevity of it. Agreed. Absolutely. Thank you all so much for being here. You're so generous with your time, and we've learned a lot from this conversation, and I hope our listeners have too. Hey, thanks for getting us together. Yeah. Thank you. It's great to see everybody's faces. Yeah. Thank you.