Expert Instruction Template

00:00:05 Speaker: Welcome back to Expert Instruction, the Teach by Design podcast, where we dive deeper into the research surrounding student behavior by talking with the people, implementing these practices where they work and with the students they support. I'm Megan Cave. I'm Danielle Triplett. It's October. Here we are. We're talking about all kinds of things related to data because at this point we've collected some. Right? Yeah, definitely. Yeah. We've got a whole you've got a whole month's worth of data. At least you got to go look at it. Yeah. What are you gonna do with it? What are you gonna listen? Megan? Aren't you curious? Aren't you just a little curious about what's going on in there? What does the data tell you about your school? Maybe it's just me. Maybe it's just me. But anyway, uh, today, of course. The other thing that's exciting is that we're talking. We're adding to our Mythbuster series, um, where we're trying to address head on some of the myths, the misunderstandings, the common perceptions, uh, related to anything around PBIs. And today we're addressing a myth. We are. The myth is it's just a meeting. Everyone knows how to do that. Come on, come on, come on. We got this. How hard could it be? How hard could it be? And yet, when we talked to our guests, they coded some meetings that they listened to, and they were like, they did. Well, turns out there's some things we could improve on. We could improve. And here's the thing. If you actually just thought about it for a second and someone tells you you've got you look at your calendar, you're trying to organize your day, and then you see, oh, we've got a faculty meeting. Mhm. Mhm. We have a staff meeting. All staff, all staff meeting. Eight a m. Our PBIs tier one meeting is is today. You look at it and you see that meeting as an A, as an item on your calendar. Are you excited about that meeting? I mean, it depends. Some meetings. I'm excited because I just am going to show up and kind of listen and I'm like, this is an hour of, you know, maybe I'm even doing a little work in the background, checking my email, all that kind of stuff. Right? Yeah. That happens. And sometimes you show up to a meeting and it feels like a waste of time. And so I just think that we think about meetings as being simple and something that we all know how to do, but really we do. We all know how to do it well. Mhm. I think that's really the key. Yeah. And so we wanted to talk to some people who know about doing a meeting well, today, and we sure did. Yes. So we've got our colleagues, Asha and Sarah, with us today. Um, the two of them have worked extensively on the Tips project. The team initiated problem solving framework is the thing that we're talking about today. We've talked about it a bunch of times on this podcast before. We're going to keep talking about it today. But today we wanted to use, um, the, the time to address this, this myth and, uh, and talk about what are some of the things that we don't do in meetings that we could do better? Yeah, yeah. We really get into those in the episode today. I'm really excited about it. Okay. So one thing I'm kind of cheesy, Megan and of course, but that's what we love about you, Danielle. Thank you. But one thing I've said for years is teamwork makes the dream work. Yeah. And like when I was in middle school teacher, I wanted to be on a team. I wanted to have people because I do feel like when we come together, we have a better product. But what I had this kind of moment today where I was like, oh, we need to sometimes be shown how to actually do team work together to make the dream work. And that's what these meetings are. Or the tips for format really explicitly teaches us, like PBIs, here are the roles and responsibilities. Here's the here's how the flow of the meeting should go. Here's what. Here's how to look at our data and then do something about it and build in some accountability pieces. So I just was like, wow, we, we do need to be sometimes shown how to, how to do things a little bit better. But with making like what they point out today, some small refinements can really lead to a big impact and, and better outcomes for our kiddos. I agree, I'm really excited about it. Yeah I agree. Something that stood out to me was this question that comes up, which is do you trust your data? Mhm. Uh, I think it's something that we often talk about using data to inform your decisions. Database decision making, data driven decisions. We talk about data a lot and how critical it is to the work that you do as a team to improve the outcomes that you want to see. Very rarely, I think, do we stop to ask ourselves, do you trust those data? Right? And it's a simple question that you could ask yourself as a team. And it turns out that, uh, within the research that Asha was doing, looking at what practices teams were doing, oftentimes she found, I think it was what, what did we say a third of the meetings that she took a look at? Uh, the team didn't trust their, their data at some point in their decision making process. And so they moved on to a different issue to try and, and solve, right? They have to solve that first before they can actually use the data. So when she talked about that, I was like, oh yeah, maybe the situation that you identify as a team is not something related to the student behaviors happening in your building. It actually is a systems level issue that you need to talk about as a group. Yes. And talk with the adults in your building. That's right. The staff member. So do you trust your data? That was something I'm going to take away. So I think I think today is, uh, is all about meetings. And I know that that sounds crazy and a little bit of a snooze, but I swear to you, you're gonna learn something because you're gonna come into this. And, and I do think that we, that we, uh, busted the myth that it's, it is actually complicated. Meeting, getting together and talking as a group is not hard. No. I can talk to Danielle all day long and we can talk about the issue and we can talk about the things that are going right. And then we leave and we don't do anything. And that can feel great. It can be really validating. Yeah, wonderful. Sometimes you do need that. And they point that out. There's a time to vent and be validated and just express like, this is what I'm feeling. That's right. And then there's another time, right? When you're getting down to business and purpose of the meeting is to be productive and to cause some change. And so, um, I think what we learned is that, uh, having a meeting is simple, but having a productive meeting is more complicated than we think. Yep. Listen in

00:06:06 Speaker: Well, Asha and Sarah, thanks so much for joining us today. We're happy to have you. it's always good to be able to talk with people that we have a relationship with. Sometimes it's like, uh, you're meeting someone and talking to them at the same time about their work, and it can be a little bit weird. Mhm. But it's nice to know that we've got friends, um, joining us today on this episode, uh, to talk about their work. So of course we're going to be talking about meetings, uh, today, uh, and looking to confirm or bust a myth in our ever growing myth buster series. What was our myth, Danielle? Our myth is it's just a meeting. Everybody knows how to do that. That's right. Everybody. How hard could it be? Just like how hard? How hard is it? We all meet. So how hard is it? Um, but the two of you, um, work on with a framework that we have spoken about before on our podcasts a few times actually called the team initiated problem solving framework. Uh, tips is what we'll call it from now on. So right now, just to get us all on the same page, can you help us remind us what is tips? Yeah, sure. Um, you know, at its core tips is, you know, the way I would say it is about turning a regular meeting into a productive decision making process. Um, we've all been to those meetings that are kind of like casual coffee chat catch ups where everyone agrees something has to happen. Um, but no one leaves with a clear plan. And then a month later, surprise. Nothing has changed. Yeah. Um, yeah. So the tips meetings really flip the script on that. And so instead of, you know, relying on our gut feelings or complaints, it really focuses us on using precise data to pinpoint the issue. And then a team can build a clear action plan, assign real responsibilities, and then kind of set a, most importantly, a follow up date to see if it actually worked. Yeah. Um, so I can kind of think of it like the difference between talking around a problem and actually solving it. Yeah. George. I used to say, um, admire, like he used to talk about admiring the problem. Yeah. Um, that it's really nice in a meeting or when you're with your colleagues that everybody's experiencing the same thing, it's really helpful to like have a vent and talk about it, you know, but, uh, yeah, like you're saying you, you actually should probably do something about it, um, at some point and see if the thing you said you were gonna do is what you actually did. Mhm. So he used to call admiring the problem. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And if you need to schedule some time to hang out and vent or whatever, but that's just like a portion of, of the meeting. And I think I'd probably be remiss if I didn't say. Also, another thing about tips is you probably already said is the amazing research on it. Um, it's been studied. There have been so many studies, including multiple randomized controlled trials. Um, so it really is scientifically validated. And so it's definitely something that truly is research based. It is. And it's all focused on meetings. I remember being at a conference with Ann Todd, who used to work in our office. She was one of the the folks who worked on this research, uh, in the early days. And I remember that she did a presentation to some of our, uh, the folks that use the Swiss suite. And, uh, she was talking to them about, you know, this is how you can use your data that come from Swiss. Embed it into a meeting and use it to make decisions. And I remember thinking going into that presentation, like this exact feeling, it's just a meeting like, right. Come on. Yeah, yeah. What are we doing? We really need like a full day training. We need to talk to people for an hour and a half about how to meet. Like, this is crazy. We're grown ups and and, um, but I just watched her talk about it, and I watched everyone go. oh, right. So so maybe we can talk about that a little bit. Yeah, yeah. I'm curious, like, where do you think this myth comes from in terms of, in fact, to remind folks, the, the myth is it's just a meeting. We all know how to do that. We all have meetings all the time. But what sets a Tips meeting apart from other casual meetings that we have in our day? Yeah. Um, honestly, I think it comes from familiarity. Uh, like, you know, team meetings are part and parcel of professional life. And so it feels like something you just know how to do it. Um, and especially schools are full of meetings and teams assume that PBIs meeting is just like any other meeting. You have a set of items to go through, one person leads and everyone else listens and they just leave the room after the meeting and then you're done. Yeah. And then you are done. I have been at that meeting. I think so, I think so, Yeah. Yeah. But PBE is tier one, two or three meetings. They are not just for sharing updates. Um, it is for making decisions from data to provide appropriate support and achieve positive student outcomes, especially students who need support. So I think and the other thing that this myth, for some reason, it just survives because most people do not get trained in this. So teachers are so teachers are trained to teach. They are not trained on data meetings, like how to use data, um, in their meetings and how to make their meetings effective. That's right, that's right. Nobody taught me. It just showed up one day to my first meeting and sat there and I took a note like I was in a class. Yeah. I was like, this is what you do, right? Someone talks and I take a note about it, and then if they ask me a question, I give them an answer. It honestly, it felt like a class. Yeah. And then I gave them an answer and then they'd say, can you give this to me by next week? And I say, oh, sure. And I take another note. And that was it. And we leave. And then we come back the next week and we did it all again, you know. Um, so no, you're right. Nobody teaches you. This is one of those things that everybody just assumes like, well, it's just a meeting. Well, and so many times you leave and you maybe you didn't do that thing. So you get back to the other meeting and it's like, oh, Megan, you were gonna do that thing. It's like, oh, I didn't get to it. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I was never trained in, uh, in conducting any meetings effectively. It's only tips when I, when I started working on the tips project, I learned, um, you know, there are different components, important components that you can, um, you can implement in conducting meetings. I think you're right that there are some meetings I go to where I look forward to them, because I know that we're actually going to get some work accomplished. And it's those meetings that more closely align with the different, um, aspects of this framework, um, that where they, they work a little bit better and they move us through the process and we actually get to do some actual work in the meeting rather than, uh, I don't know the updates, like you were saying, like this could have been an email, right? Exactly. Yeah. Yes. We've all been in those, you know, the other other aspect of tips is it very nicely describes what roles and responsibilities team members have. And most of the meetings that I have experienced or I have seen school teams, um, the way they are conducting is only if you are leading or facilitating, you are very well prepared that, oh, I have to have agenda y before I enter the room. But if I am not taking any of those active roles, I enter into the meeting with my coffee thinking that if somebody would tell me, I'll do it. Otherwise, you know, I'm just sitting there. Yes, nothing else but tips. Uh, tips describes nicely how, you know, every member can be involved and everybody has a role to play. And once you are clear about your role, I think the whole dynamic of the team meeting changes. So that's another myth or that sort of leads to myth. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think so. Having a purpose, giving yourself a purpose and in the meeting and a role to play. Yeah, I'm remembering Anton training the schools I worked with and she had little cards on the table and it would. It would clearly define though each person's role. And there's a meeting facilitator, someone who's taking notes, someone who's timekeeping, someone who has the data. And then there's one just for all of us who are participants. So it's not, you're an active participant, even if you don't have one of those assigned roles, like it had a bulleted list of, here's what you'll do during the meeting. So you can have your coffee, but you're also an active participant. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're gonna have to pay attention. I think the thing that what what we wanted to talk to you guys a little bit more about is the, um, the research that you have done most recently where you have, um, watched, you've recorded some meetings and you've watched how teams meet and you've actually looked at all of the different components that go into this scientifically proven evidence based practice, you watched them meet and you coded all of the different things that they did and what they missed. Yeah. And you shared those things with us. And so when we think about what it's just a meeting. How hard could it be? We all know how to do that. It turns out that we kind of know how to do that, but there are some things that we don't necessarily do as well as others. And if we did those things, it would lead to improve like even more improved outcomes. And so we wanted to talk to you, the two of you today, about some of those things that maybe teams kind of miss the mark on and what we could do to improve our team meetings. So the first one that we had was um, the first one we want to talk about are the things Danielle and I kind of grouped to together. Yes, we did. Right. We, we looked at and saw some things. Yeah, we grouped two together and we're calling this the almost but not quite category. So teams are kind of doing some of these things. Um, but they could, they're missing like an element of it. Um, and so talk to us a little bit about what you noticed the teams did do and which, what were the critical pieces that were still missing, particularly around the action planning tasks and the, uh, the goals that people were setting. Right. So first what, what, what did they do well? Or what are they doing? So tips has three components. The first one is foundations. So what does it take before you even start doing the meeting to make your meeting successful. And some of those things are like having agenda in place, having scheduled start and end time have location and everybody is informed about that location. Now, these things, usually most of the teams do pretty well. Um, but and, and the other aspect is situation identification, which is of course based on data that it is informed by data. But in situation identification, there are five elements. And we often see most schools, they identify at least three or four elements of precisely defining that situation, like who is involved in it, where it is happening, how often it is happening. Uh, the why part, like why it is happening. If they see something happening in the playground, in the hallway, but the part like why it is happening, that part they miss. Um, and um, so those, those, but other aspect of the situation, they are doing it well, uh, things that they are not doing or most of the schools are missing, especially in our, you know, in our data, we found the first thing, uh, is action plan. So after they have identified the situation, they have selected appropriate solution. They and they have decided onto the goals. They have to come up with some action plan. How are they going to implement that solution, that solution. And when they decide that they are missing out, who is the person who will be implementing that solution? Or what is the timeline? How long are they going to implement that and any follow up like, okay, maybe by November fifteenth, when we have our next meeting, we'll come back and look at that. So these three aspects of action plan we see not happening. Um, and the other thing, um, you mentioned about goals. So goals are something sometimes they are defining it very generic. But in tips we say that it should be smart goal. It should be measurable. They have to have, um, you know, clearly defined goals and sometimes they are very generic, like, okay, we need to bring our miners down. Mhm. But that's not measurable. So after two months or six weeks, if they are looking at it, they do not know whether it has come down or not. So they are missing out on the baseline, uh, to compare with. So basically they are not defining the goals. Um, and, and also like in goals, the important part is numeric target. We always, we as part of tips, we teach our teams to include to to include data when they are setting their goals. But they are if they are not, um, if they are not including that data, they won't be able to measure that goal. Um, and also review date, like, like I said, for the action plan, there is, there is review date for the goals as well. There is review date that when do they want to achieve that goal. So they are missing out on these three things. Yeah. And that gets to a little bit about what you were talking about Sarah. How, um, with teams that or meetings you've been a part of or team meetings that you've helped facilitate that it's the, it's that who is going to do what by when? And having that be an accountability piece that often goes missing after you've talked about the situation, what it is that's happening in the building that you would like to address as a team, the solution that you want to implement. And then it's like, now you got to add the tasks associated with it, and we're going to talk about a time when we're going to review it, and we're going to make sure that everybody did what they said they were going to do. Mhm. Um, why is it do you think that that's so difficult or that that that's a step that goes goes out the window. Mhm. Is it time related, do you think? Do teams lack the time to actually get specific about assigning or what. Yeah. I mean, I think time can definitely be a factor. Um, again, maybe just also that lack of training on this is how we actually have to implement a plan. Mhm. Um, that people just, it seems simple, but maybe people just, well, I don't know if I'm supposed to assign you or am I allowed to, to write an administrative authority to. Um, but I would say that is one of the top two things that I see, um, that we really emphasize with tips and that really is a game changer is the follow up that you came back and you followed up on the thing you said you would do. And that makes so much of a difference. So if we could even get teams to just do that one thing, um, there would be some success for sure. Sarah. This is I'm just having an aha moment and I feel like I know tips pretty well. And yet all of a sudden I'm like, oh, it's also valuable in that they all attend a training and they all hear that information in the same room and are trained, you know, on the same protocol. So when because I know sometimes we're so nice in meetings, it's like, well, I don't want to have Sarah. I don't want to ask her if she'll do that or make her do it or, you know, but instead we're like, oh, we all agreed. This is how meetings work. And so it maybe removes that level of like awkwardness of like, oh, am I, am I supposed to do everything because I'm the principal or I'm the team lead? It's like, no, this is how we work together. And you've kind of established that by having a time before the meeting to discuss all that, so that when you get to the meeting, you can actually go through the things you need to. And it's like we've made some agreements on how we work together. Like that's a game changer. So you're describing right? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think those common agreements, when you have that team time together to really establish what everybody's different roles are, and then that just becomes a routine of what we do. We do, we have to someone's looking at you saying like, okay, well, who is going to do this? Right? This is just a part of that process. Um, part of the, the real tips process too, is that your first couple meetings after you've been trained is a coach is there with you as well? Um, that can also just be that gentle prompt to say, okay, I don't think we, you know, assigned a timeline here or whatever. So that can also be really helpful. What we found without the coach is there was not as much success as with that coach to help them feel like, yes, it's okay to assign this or put this date here, um, as well too. Yeah, totally. A big part of what we're talking about, database decision making, um, are the data, right. And so it's in the name. It's part of what we do in tips. And it's when we looked at the data that you guys coded, it looks like you found that about a third of the meetings that you observed, um, teams mentioned they didn't trust some of the, some part of the data they looked at. And so we're curious, what is that about? We want to talk about, we hear this from schools all the time. Like, oh, that data's not accurate. That doesn't really reflect what's actually going on or those inconsistencies we see in the way people enter data, talk about report that data. So tell us more about that component. Mhm. Yeah, yeah. Figure really jumped out at us. Um, because, you know, I think it really does highlight, um, a major hurdle in, uh, the database decision making. Um, what we often see in tips meetings is that when teams don't trust the data. Then teens stop using the data, and then they go back to anecdotal stories and relying on assumptions and things of that nature. So, um, if a team isn't trusting the data, they're not going to act on it. They're not going to write an action plan about it because they feel like the underlying problem statement is built on flawed numbers. Yeah. Um, and that's really a foundational, you know, element of tips is, is doing that data based decision making. And so, and then we also kind of move away from objectivity when that data trust is low. And sometimes we see this thing that can happen with teens where they become a little selective, like, you know, maybe we'll pay attention to these numbers because they feel maybe a little more validating and maybe dismiss these other numbers that might, you know, expose difficult issues like disparities or something like that. Yeah. so I mean, just in terms of that being an issue, we still think tips can help with that. Right. So, um, we use the tips framework. So if data distrust is an issue, um, let's treat it like something that we can solve. Um, and so we need to do some digging. Um, so common things that come up with that data distrust is that, um, our definitions may be unclear. And so people don't know when something is a tardy, when something is a level one, when it's disruption, um, when it's a major, when it's a minor. And so we might need to do some work in that area. Mhm. Um, another thing that comes up And the most important to me that I see is just faculty don't think the data is being used or useful. So that's why they don't document. Mhm. So because of those things, it's like then we have to figure out what can we do about it. And we can't, we can't just stop there. It's like we gotta, you know, um, take some action around that. yeah, I yeah, along the same lines, I was thinking, you know, when we share the, when schools start using data and they see some discrepancy or inconsistencies and they are not able to trust that data to draw their decisions. That's a sort of good indicator or a message for them that they need to have some professional development for staff members and in their, um, even if they know some of the definitions and things like that. But staff need to see how important their role is when they are entering these data accurately and timely manner. So they also need to understand, like they need to see that they are doing very important job by, by, you know, entering this data. Yes. And, and, and that data is being used. So I think that's an important aspect of, you know, it's like two sides of the data. There's, there's one who is inputting data and the other who is using that data. Yeah. So it's just bringing those two together through some professional development school wide. And that could be another situation for them that they have identified as, you know, professional development, school wide professional development required and, um, deliver some effective training around that. That's such a good point. Sometimes the, the situation that you identify is not specific to the student behaviors that you're, that you're evaluating or looking at those data. It's actually related to the systems level issue that's happening in the school, which might be the referral process. And like, we actually do need you to document the behaviors that are happening in your classroom, on the playground, wherever, because we actually need that information in order to make a decision, an informed decision about how we're going to help to solve this particular issue that we see. Exactly. So that's a really good point, Asha. The last piece, which maybe is one of the harder pieces, um, is that nearly every meeting that you coded the team missed an opportunity to talk about their data using an equity lens. So they, um, they didn't disaggregate their data by specifically, I think it was race and ethnicity that they might have chosen grade level, let's say as there um disaggregate point. Um and so what we wanted to talk about, I think related to this is, uh, there's a lot packed into it, but why do you think this is such an important part of the decision making process that it's so important that you even identified that this was a step that was missed in nearly every meeting? Yeah. Um, that is something I have to say about that topic. That finding was a, um, eye opener, but not necessarily surprising. Um, but it just, it does show like how many well intentioned teams are still missing that deeper layer of analysis. Um, you know, when teams look at, say, the aggregate or just the school wide numbers, they can get a false sense of security because the aggregate data can hide disproportionality basically in plain sight. Um, a school might, for example, see, uh, thirty office discipline referrals for the month and think, wow, that's pretty low. We're doing great. But if twenty of those referrals were given to black male students who make up ten percent of the population, or subjective behaviors like defiance, you know, then we have a specific equity gap that really, um, demands our attention. Mhm. Um, you know, but I do understand, and the reality is that looking at disaggregated data by race and ethnicity can still make people uncomfortable. Mhm. there can be a real fear of just starting that conversation if you don't know how to have it. Yes. Or maybe you do. And you're simply like, okay, we see this gap, but we have no idea what to do about it. Right? Um, we've talked about that before here too, that like, once you identify something that you want a challenge that you want to try and, uh, that's happening in your school now, you feel compelled to do something about it. And if you don't know what to do, you're. It feels like you're stuck. So you just skip over it. Like, let's let's move on. Yeah. It's easier to avoid these difficult topics. Yeah. Yeah. another thing I would say that maybe takes a little pressure off possibly is that we don't necessarily think as part of the Tips framework, that you have to disaggregate by race and ethnicity every single meeting. Um, because that could feel overwhelming and, and it may not even be helpful. Um, but we should be disaggregating, you know, like quarterly, um, so that we can zoom out periodically and really ask some questions like, you know, are certain student groups have a higher risk of receiving discipline than others? Um, are there specific times of day locations, behaviors where we see a student group is written up, um, more than others. And so thinking about doing this, maybe at least quarterly can help to, you know, I don't have to do it every single situation and every single month. Uh, we talked with, um, you were bringing up, um, vulnerable decision points and we spoke with a while ago actually, um, Maria and Sean who work in our office, um, about those vulnerable decision points. And Sean actually did some work where he checked out the, um, he did a little bit of this overlap right in his research where he looked at the precise statements that teams were making as part of tips related to their data. And then he looked at when are the times that, um, our school wide, when are we most likely as a group of adults to make a decision that is more likely to affect one group than another? So the vulnerable decision point. And he found that they are very often one and the same. And so um, in Swiss we did a whole article about it. I'll link to it in the description, but we did a whole article about how you can check out your precise statement. Um, and then just flip over to the equity portion of it and check out which students are actually included in that group of behaviors that are happening in your building that you really want to try and address. And you can really quickly check to see if you have an equity issue within that precise statement. And it can be as simple as that, that you don't necessarily have to, um, have to get into a whole big like professional development time where you're diving deep into something, but it does need to be something that you check because something that we talk about within PBIs and using data to guide your decisions is that data can also show you the things that are going really well. And, um, who is the question then has to become if PBIs is working, who is it working for? And so you just want to make sure that it is working for everyone, that you have a school wide system that you're, that you have in place. Tier one goes all the way up to the tip of the triangle. We've talked about this before, that it includes every student in your building. And so what you want to do is make sure that as long as your tier one is working, you want to make sure that it's working for everyone and that no one is experiencing your school in a different way from most other students. So, um, so I think that it is, uh, it's all of those things that you said, um, Sarah, that they're the challenges that teams face. Uh, it also is true that there are some really simple things that you can do to give yourself a check to make sure that you've. You've double checked that the issue that you're working on doesn't have an extra layer. Asha, what would you say about about this particular item that you coded because you said you saw thirty. Was it thirty six meetings that were included in total? Yeah. And then thirty three of them didn't include this step. yeah, I think it's it's like Sarah mentioned, you know, there is hesitation around it. It's not easy. And especially in at tier two or tier three level, when you are discussing about individual students, I think hesitation is even more. Yeah. Because you're getting individual student very specific, whether it's a student or the educator. Yes. So you are pointing finger at somebody, maybe you know that that that's one reason that we see. Um, and also there could be lack of training. You know, if, if nobody has ever touched upon this topic in their school or in their team meetings. Um, so they are not not discussing it, they are not looking into it. Mhm. That's right. Yeah. That makes sense. You don't know what you don't know. Exactly. Yeah. Mhm. So speaking of you don't know what you don't know. We've got listeners out there and some of them might be brand new to this. And we like to end with sort of what are some next steps where folks could get started? So thinking of your work with teams, the Tips framework, your experience as coaches and researchers, we're curious, what are some simple things that teams can do to improve their meetings and make them more effective? The first thing I would say, whether they have received the tips training or not, they can start documenting the one thing that we see very common across school team, team data teams is that they have the agenda and it stops right there, and they would have just few lines of notes after the meeting. Uh, very few schools are using something we call Tips Meeting Minutes. It's available on our PBIs dot org website. Uh, and so they can download that. They can start using. But one thing, one problem is if they just start using without having any tips, training or understanding about that, that meeting minutes, it does require them to define situations precisely or have smart goals. So it's the language that they are using to document all of that. Um, that without the training might not be, uh, in alignment with what we expect once they are trained in tips, but at least that framework, that one piece of sheet guides them not to miss all these important components. And the other important, um, um, the why it is important is because it helps them to track everything. So if they have identified situations, whether it's precise or not, with some solutions and action plans they have come up with, if they have something in writing, It's about maintaining record and being able to track all of those, uh, small or big decisions they have made in the, in their meetings. So the first thing they can do is go to our website and download that and start using that. And the other thing is we are currently conducting a study across the country with elementary schools. So if anyone is interested, they can reach out to us through our inquiry form, uh, which I believe we can include the link on our website so they can reach out to us if they are interested in participating, because everything is free to receive as part of the study, they can receive the training completely free. In fact, they receive, uh, incentives to participate and whole of the team can be trained. Um, so that's, that's very nice of you offering an incentive. It's very good, very good. I think that's an excellent option. I mean, the, the framework itself is proven, obviously. And to get that training for free, while offering up your experience as part of research is I think it's an incredible opportunity that we encourage folks to take advantage of. If you can. Definitely. Um, I'll put in a plug right now for, um, our group just put out, uh, the tips meeting app, um, that schools can subscribe to. So it, it, it takes that form that Asha talked about, um, and, uh, created an app around it. And so your team, it'll just basically walk you through those steps. So if you get overwhelmed by a form, uh, you can use the app to walk you through each of the different steps so that you never miss one. Um, and there's always a spot for you to add the who, what, when, where, why of it all. Um, and so that your team can continue to use those, uh, that this process to inform the decisions that you make as a group. So, um, so there are lots of options for how you too can do tips in your building. Um, so yeah, I think, I think what we've done today is we've described how simple a meeting feels, but how complex it actually is in the execution. So I would say that we busted this myth. I agree, busted very much so. And we're so grateful to the two of you, Asha and Sarah, for joining us today and filling us in on some of the, the research that you've been doing around and the team meetings that you've seen, um, and the places that we can all improve on our process. Yeah. We appreciate you. So grateful for your generosity of time and expertise. Thank you very much. Thank you. I'm glad we had this conversation. Thank you very much.