[William Engfer - NROC] 13:01:14 All right, well, without further ado, we're going to kick this webinar off. Thank you all so much for joining us for our October edition of our NROC webinar series. This webinar is titled AI and Lessons from EdTech History to Build the Future of AI and Education. [William Engfer - NROC] 13:01:32 Now, if you've tuned into one of our webinars before, this one is gonna be a little bit different. Um, this is gonna be a panel discussion, um, between our different panelists, facilitated by NROC's president, Dr. Arash Bissel, um, and essentially, we're gonna… [William Engfer - NROC] 13:01:48 go through a wide range of different topics, but most importantly is you all and your questions and participation. So any questions you have for our panelists, please feel free, pop those in the chat, pop those in the Q&A section, and we will get to them as they come in. We want this really to be a dynamic conversation between our panelists about their expertise, but also with all of you and what questions you have about this topic. [William Engfer - NROC] 13:02:15 So, without further ado, we're just gonna go into some quick housekeeping, and then I will turn it over. Like I said, please put those Q&A, uh, any questions you have in the Q&A section or in the chat box. Um, this webinar is being recorded. It will be provided. [William Engfer - NROC] 13:02:31 to you via an email with a link to our website, also with a link to these few slides, as well as a transcript, if you'd like it. If you're having any issues with Zoom or any other technical issues, please reach out to us. [William Engfer - NROC] 13:02:46 at community@nrock.org. [William Engfer - NROC] 13:02:48 Now, first and foremost, we'd love to know who's joining us, so if you could pop your name, your institution, your current role. As you're doing that, though, please be sure to switch in your chat from where, just above you type your message, it says, hosts and panelists. Please be sure to switch that over to everyone. [William Engfer - NROC] 13:03:07 Uh, both for your questions and for, you know, for this introduction, just so that everybody can see, um, who's joining us today. So, with that, I'm actually going to turn it over to the NROC Project's president, Dr. Ash Bissell, for a little history over. [William Engfer - NROC] 13:03:24 about our organization. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:03:27 Thank you so much, Will. Welcome, everyone. I'm really excited about this webinar. We, as an organization, certainly try to create spaces where we can all learn from each other and with each other, and webinars are one of our best vehicles for doing that. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:03:45 I think this is going to be a particularly informative webinar. So as Will said, I'm Arash Bissel. I'm president here at NROC and have been with NROC for quite a number of years and through a lot of the history that you see on the slide. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:04:01 key take-home, really, when you start to think about who NROC is and kind of what we've done over the years, is that we've always been a technology organization. Our mission is specifically about what the role of technology might be in education, educational practice. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:04:19 and in creating educational opportunities for people all over the country, and to some extent beyond our borders. We launched originally as a project that was focused on open educational resources or oer, and in particular, how to integrate. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:04:35 multimedia and technology and sort of modes of engagement into OER offerings. Many of you may be familiar that we've distributed not just media that we built. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:04:47 but media that were developed by other partner organizations through a site called Hippocampus. Hippocampus.org is still up and going strong and gets quite a lot of visitorship every year. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:04:57 We then leveraged that position to build a suite of multimedia courses focused mostly on math and English, since those are the disciplinary areas that have the greatest impact on student progress through our educational systems, readiness for post-secondary studies. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:05:16 And so on. And in the course of building all that, we built a partnership network, which we called NROC, ultimately became our name. We sort of embraced that. And those partners told us that. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:05:30 They needed more help, that they wanted even more guidance from us in terms of the kind of technologies that we were building and how that might support their practices. And that led us to eventually build a platform that many of you are probably familiar with called EdReady. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:05:46 which takes a personalized and adaptive approach to those core math and English skills that affect student opportunity and ultimately success, especially in post-secondary programs. And since then, we've been working to diversify and scale that all over the country. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:06:05 The sort of mode of operation we've kind of stuck to over this entire timeframe has always been to be just slightly back from the bleeding edge. So we don't necessarily want to be out there running just. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:06:19 kind of semi-blind experiments on our students and with our institutional partners. Instead, we want to be aware of how these technologies are evolving and emerging. And then when the dust has maybe settled a little bit, we start. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:06:35 to get real hands on about. Okay, what do we do with this? How can we make this useful for our partners and in the educational context? And so we we certainly perceive of ourselves as being an innovation shop, building new tools and and enabling new competencies. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:06:52 across that landscape. And of course, the latest iteration of that is the emergence of AI. So our organization has been dealing in adaptive and machine learning for a long time. The emergence of AI and its modern form. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:07:10 is certainly opened up a lot of really exciting opportunities that we are exploring and, in fact, moving forward on a number of fronts, but also raised a lot of questions. And so we are having these kinds of discussions internally. And really, the rest of this hour. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:07:25 we're gonna get to hear and, you know, participate in a conversation with a number of other folks who have been not just working with us, but also having those conversations in multiple circles. So you all should come on and join us in the room. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:07:45 So you saw their titles and things in there, but yes, welcome Jim Larimore, Mara Woody, and John Fila. And I don't really even necessarily have to have a lot to say here because they bring just this incredible wealth of both. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:08:00 expertise in terms of some of the history and really looking at the landscape, but also very modern day expertise in terms of what exactly is it that is happening with AI, both within their own work and as they're looking at the landscape more broadly. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:08:15 So, I think I'm just gonna open by actually having each of you maybe just say a few words, kind of your first thoughts about this topic, um, of, you know, trying to forecast a little bit. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:08:28 where are we heading, what is this all going to look like as things evolve, and what role should we all be playing as we think about how AI and education are going to intersect? And I'll start with you, Jim. [Jim Larimore] 13:08:41 Sure. Yeah, nice easy question. Thanks, Arash. Yeah, I think, you know, so I'm kind of In some ways, when I look back over the past five years, so five years ago, I co-founded the EdSafe AI Alliance, which is really on education and safety. [Jim Larimore] 13:08:57 and AI. And what we anticipated at that time was that we had experience with how the industry sector or big tech rolls things out. And we saw whether it's through the birth of the Internet, you know, kind of a lot of online business started coming online. [Jim Larimore] 13:09:14 or coming into our lives, social media, you know, all of those sorts of things. And we kind of knew from the beginning that there was a need to have education push itself into the conversation rather than wait to be invited into the conversation. And we started to. [Jim Larimore] 13:09:30 focus on, uh, where there were some gaps or issues likely to come along, trying to understand, um, uh, algorithms, general, um. [Jim Larimore] 13:09:41 generative AI and how it functions really is a probability machine, uh, in, in certain ways. And, uh, and so where I am now is kind of feeling like, okay, we… [Jim Larimore] 13:09:50 kind of anticipated what was coming. It came out of the box faster than we expected. There was a lot more money kind of, you know, thrown into it, and education, I think, is in the conversation. But we need to become even more central in the in the conversation right to make sure that. [Jim Larimore] 13:10:07 Algorithms are optimized for learning and not for eyeball time or for token consumption or for speed, which is not necessarily something that goes hand in hand with learning, where you want productive engagement and struggle and things like that. [Jim Larimore] 13:10:23 glass-half-full optimist who's also trying to be as much of a pragmatist as I can be at this point, and really determined just to get more educators into the thick of the discussion. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:10:36 Yeah, really appreciate that, Jim. Mara. [Mara Woody] 13:10:39 Yeah, a lot of what I'm going to say is really to build off what Jim was saying. First off, I don't think anyone knows what actually the future looks like with AI. That's still for us, the human beings, to define. And how we do that, we ultimately will all make those decisions about how we engage in that and how that happens. [Mara Woody] 13:10:56 And so really building on what Jim said, one of the things that has really stood out to me in the history of education is that generations of educators have been part of defining that future. We did not wait for somebody else to define it for us. We did not wait for someone else to come to our doors and tell us how we should educate. And this is our watershed moment, as MIT is saying around AI. This is our moment in education to really step to that table and be there to help define the future of what AI looks like. [Mara Woody] 13:11:26 I hear a lot of conversations where folks say, you know, we don't know what the workforce needs in AI readiness and student fluency and literacy. And what my response is, is, well, what we do is we prepare individuals to navigate an entire life and to help define and thrive in that life. [Mara Woody] 13:11:44 Workforce needs are a part of that, but they're not the definition of that. And so what we need to do is focus on how do we develop individuals? The workforce part will come once we develop them with that more holistic, here's how your entire life will be navigated and where AI will fit in your life. [Mara Woody] 13:11:59 Also to really kind of hit home what Jim said about making sure we're in that conversation. Another thing I say is as education, if we're not at that table and making those decisions and help defining that future, who will do it in our place? [Ahrash Bissell] 13:12:06 Right. [Mara Woody] 13:12:14 And is that someone who's doing it for the good of humanity with the same motivations we do it in education? And do we want to take that risk if it's not us? And so it really is a call for all of us in education to actively be participants in this because there is. [Mara Woody] 13:12:30 so much at stake for the futures of the individuals that we serve if we're not at that table. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:12:37 Yeah, well said. Thanks, Mara. John? [Jon Fila] 13:12:42 I would just add that, you know, I think there's a big difference between what's possible and where we're heading. I would like to see us move much further along than just the simple task level work to, you know, real systems level change. [Jon Fila] 13:12:57 because I think we can do so much more with these tools than just simple artifact generation. And you know that that seems to be the bulk of the training that I'm seeing right now. I'm particularly concerned about how people are dealing with. [Jon Fila] 13:13:13 the bias that's baked into generative AI, and start building governance frameworks, prompting strategies, training strategies that let people use AI with equity and with intention. [Jon Fila] 13:13:27 You know it's these bias engines. [Jon Fila] 13:13:32 only work that they only work if they are that right, they don't work, and they're not effective if they're not just assigning probability. So it's on us. It's not on the developers to create more equitable machines. They'll break if they try to tweak those on their end. We have to be responsible for how we use these tools. [Jon Fila] 13:13:54 And making sure we're adding our additional layers and guardrails, and really seeking to get what it is we want that's reflective of our values, of our learners. And so, um… [Jon Fila] 13:14:05 Yeah, I'll just leave it at that for now. I have plenty to say about where I think we're headed. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:14:10 Well, so all three of you, I think, painted the picture that it's inaccurate. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:14:17 kind of capture of the moment, which is okay, right? We need educators to weigh it in, right? I mean, to the extent that we're feeling like this is being imposed on us, that we're simply scrambling to keep up, that mostly this is a job of whack-a-mole. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:14:34 And who can do it all, right? That we need to sort of change that narrative. It's not that that's not real, right? I think all of us feel a certain sense of, oh, gosh, right? Like, wow, there's a lot to do here. But I think you've all said engagement is required. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:14:48 And so I guess, John, I feel like kind of where you went with that is you said there are ways that we can seize control, at least a certain amount of control that isn't just hand wringing and like you said, telling people to just do better. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:15:04 But where you actually just take the tools as they're given, and you say, now that I have an understanding of them, I can leverage that. I can leverage that for our own purposes and the way we want. So you want to say more about that? What does that even look like? What's the practical advice here? [Jon Fila] 13:15:16 Yeah. [Jon Fila] 13:15:17 Yeah. So, I think understanding that we can manipulate the output of these tools, and there are lots of ways that people can try that just by altering prompts slightly, right? Tell it you live in a certain area, tell it, you know, what your name is, and then give it, and then swap those details out with other things. And you can start to see how those kinds of things work and how different stereotypes might come into play. So, what I'm talking about is a comprehensive strategy of instructions that we give to these. [Jon Fila] 13:15:45 with, you know, markdown files that track lessons, where every time we correct these tools, they're not going to make those kinds of mistakes again. Making sure that we have. [Jon Fila] 13:15:56 guardrails built in. We're actually giving the tools our policies. We're giving them, you know, strategies to overcome some of that implicit bias and asking specifically for what we need and who is to be included on the other side. We can even ask these tools. [Jon Fila] 13:16:11 who we're leaving out. You know, I often use these tools as a check against myself and my own biases. Flag examples where, you know, I could be more inclusive. Flag examples where, you know, the accessibility is lacking in this resource. So, you know, I… [Jon Fila] 13:16:26 I think it goes both ways, right? Like, I'm creating a structure in which the tool reads the guardrails I'm putting into place at the first step and the last step of anything I'm doing with them, but I'm also having it push back on me. [Jon Fila] 13:16:42 And it's that push back and forth that I think is going to be a really important strategy in terms of how we use these tools. [Jim Larimore] 13:16:50 Yeah. Yeah, Kathy? [Ahrash Bissell] 13:16:51 Yeah, that's super. And actually, Jim, maybe you'll pick up on this. So I mean, a lot of what you said is, of course, super compelling. And I've seen some of that in action in our own work. But I also suspect that a lot of people feel like, oh, gosh, I already have a job. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:17:07 right? I already have… there's a lot I need to be doing here, and is it really just on me individually to not only learn about all this, but really kind of grapple with it, and kind of, like, figure this out on my own? And where are the spaces, and, like, what would the recommendations be for how maybe people can feel a little less. [Jim Larimore] 13:17:14 Yep. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:17:25 alone in doing this? Like, how can they maybe connect to other people, or are there ways that we could do this that make it feel like, no, as a community, we're starting to move towards these ideas? [Jim Larimore] 13:17:25 Yep. [Jim Larimore] 13:17:27 Nope. [Jim Larimore] 13:17:35 Right. [Jim Larimore] 13:17:38 Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Arash, I think, so probably like a response to your question as well as John's comments. So, and I'll say this because I love teachers, right? I wouldn't be here if it weren't for, you know, some great teachers in my life over time. But I think when people sometimes say, you know, I'm overwhelmed, I've got, you know, too many things going. [Jim Larimore] 13:17:57 My gut response is usually something along the lines of, since when has a teacher only done one thing at a time? I think that it's a matter of how you allocate your time or attention, how you do this. Not everyone has to do it the same way. [Jim Larimore] 13:18:12 And another comment that you made is around feeling isolated, feeling like the only one. I think this is one of those times where people need to do what they can individually. And they also need to recognize that whether it's in their building or department. [Jim Larimore] 13:18:26 or in their district or across their state or across a professional network of math educators or English instructors or others, they're a part of an ecosystem that has different priorities, different kind of interests, different resources that can be brought to bear. [Jim Larimore] 13:18:45 I served earlier this year on the state of Illinois or the Illinois Board of Education. [Jim Larimore] 13:18:50 AI task force, and we worked with a group of educators in the State who, when they shared a 1st draft of some things that they were working on. We the those of us on the Advisory Council just heaped praise on them. [Jim Larimore] 13:19:05 Because they didn't start with the technology. They started with, what is the purpose of education? What are we trying to help our students, you know, become or grow into? What do we want to expose them to? And then the question was. [Jim Larimore] 13:19:16 how do we use this tool? Right? How do we check to make sure it's aligned with what we're trying to accomplish? How do we just not take something off the shelf and expect that it's going to transform things the way that a film strip or a VHS tape. [Jim Larimore] 13:19:33 was, you know, or a smart board was sold as a panacea right in the in the past. So I think some of this is, yeah, people should not work in isolation right between schools, districts, area education agencies, state boards, you know, whatever the. [Jim Larimore] 13:19:49 the structured are within the ecosystem, I think they can demand information, you know, try to track what's happening. And I think, you know, this is something that we're going to have to break down into smaller parts and then kind of reassemble, right, as we learn more. And there are teachers who are already doing that. [Mara Woody] 13:20:09 So I'll add to that that I was working in state government when COVID hit many years ago, six years ago now. And one of the things that AI feels very similar to whenever COVID hit was people are scared. [Mara Woody] 13:20:23 People don't know what to do. People aren't sure what they should or shouldn't do. What is self-preservation right now? Am I out of a job? And that was very reminiscent to me of what people felt whenever COVID hit, that same fear. And so what I decided to start doing around AI is. [Mara Woody] 13:20:43 actually just start putting out information and connecting people and so I do that a lot on LinkedIn I put out information on AI but anyone can reach out to me on LinkedIn and say hey I don't know what to do and I'm going to start connecting you with folks I know that are doing really great work and there are a lot of different resources and ways to look at it like Will can put some links in the chat right now for us that look at AI resources for the purpose of teaching and learning. [Mara Woody] 13:21:10 and what's happening in the classroom, and what are good sources? What are we finding about different types of AI and give folks information to kind of empower them around. You know, what do I want to do in the classroom with AI. But one of the things that I talk about a lot, too, is the infrastructure that exists before that. If I'm at an institution that has no AI policy. [Mara Woody] 13:21:30 How do I know what's okay and what's not okay in the context of what I'm doing in the classroom? And so it's important for schools and institutions to really think about that more holistic, like what is it that we are going to lead into with AI? And MIT had put out this beautiful AI report earlier this year that said AI should not lead education. [Mara Woody] 13:21:52 our mission, our institution, vision, our values should lead how we determine we're going to utilize AI. And so, starting with that infrastructure building framework. And so I'll put in a couple of extra chats or links in the chat around different organizations. I know that are doing work in infrastructure building. And that's a really critical, important piece to this is, you're not alone. You are part of organizations that need to do this work. [Mara Woody] 13:22:17 as a whole organization. And so for anyone, it's an open invitation. If you want to reach out to me on Linkedin, we can have a meeting, sit down, talk about what you're worried about, thinking about, what you want to know, and I will start connecting you with folks that are doing that work. [Mara Woody] 13:22:34 Um, because there are a lot of opportunities out there, and philanthropy is supporting this work, and so there are a lot of funded opportunities, and so this isn't something you have to have an upfront resource to invest to be able to get access to developmental opportunities that are already out there, and there are communities that do this very thing, and so. [Mara Woody] 13:22:52 Just connecting with that and not feeling alone, I think is an important piece of this. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:22:59 Well, that's fantastic. And I hope everybody here actually checks those things out and also connects with Mara because that seems like a pretty amazing offer. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:23:10 You know, I don't I don't need to necessarily, overtly. [Mara Woody] 13:23:17 Oh. [Mara Woody] 13:23:18 We lost you. [William Engfer - NROC] 13:23:30 Well, in the meantime, while Arash tries to get reconnected there, that's great that you've offered those links in the chat, Mara. That's super helpful. [William Engfer - NROC] 13:23:43 I guess the best next place to look at is… is maybe tracing, you know, how we got up to this point more, um, and understanding. [William Engfer - NROC] 13:23:55 How these technologies have developed, maybe where they're going to go. [William Engfer - NROC] 13:24:01 you know, up to this moment, they've developed in a certain way, maybe where we see the current landscape changing. Um, I don't know, Jim, if you want to start off with, even, you know, from 5 years ago, when you founded EdSafe. [William Engfer - NROC] 13:24:16 AI Alliance up to now, how have you seen the technology change? [Jim Larimore] 13:24:24 Okay, good. I can come off mute here. So yeah, I think what. [Jim Larimore] 13:24:29 What was interesting was, you know, so we founded the Unsafe AI Alliance about 18 months before ChatGPT was released into the wild. We had a sense of what might be coming, but didn't know exactly what form it would take. We were looking at older forms of artificial intelligence. [Jim Larimore] 13:24:46 at that point. Uh, but the things that we were concerned about were the same, right? Uh, safety, uh, data security, privacy, uh, really, uh, building things and configuring them in a way that would, um. [Jim Larimore] 13:25:00 provide a little bit of a trail so that you could have accountability or inspectability built in. We cared a lot about fairness and bias and kind of articulated some things there. And ultimately, you know, we also looked at efficacy, right? When you have something that you're pushing out there as a widely used technology. [Jim Larimore] 13:25:18 Can you actually prove that it is beneficial, right? That people can use it in a way that leads to some kind of positive impact on learning or operational efficiency that gives teachers back some time in their lives, right? So we're mapping those sorts of things out. [Jim Larimore] 13:25:35 very quickly after Chat Gpt was released. There was panic, and there were a few people like John and Myra, who kind of leaned in and said, Oh, let's figure this out. These are some things that might actually, we might squeeze some beneficial use out of them. And I think what has happened is that some of that activity led to the formation of. [Jim Larimore] 13:25:54 companies, like Brisk Teaching, which is, as they got started, they decided to take this mix of former teachers and Google people who cared about education, and they set to work in building a set of teacher tools, right? They knew what might make a difference in the life of a teacher, and by extension, hopefully. [Jim Larimore] 13:26:13 their students, and they didn't sit and wait for Openai to do it, or for the Google learning team to do it. They started to lean in, and I think we started to see then, you know, a proliferation of things, some really low quality stuff. People just built a nice wrapper to put on top of Chat Gpt. [Jim Larimore] 13:26:31 And figured that they would sell that. And there were other people who really reconfigured it and re-engineered things to really focus on learning, right? And to support recognizing that learning requires engagement, productive struggle. I think teachers have now… I was reading some things on a flight earlier this morning. [Jim Larimore] 13:26:50 Great conversations going on around the ways that people need to rethink how they explain assignments to their students, whether the homework assignments are just checked to make sure that a student completed them, or if they're treated as practice. [Jim Larimore] 13:27:07 which you might grade differently than if it was a high-stakes kind of assessment or test, right? So I think our people are figuring this out as we go, and the question for me is, you know, can we harvest enough of those insights, bring them together, and make sure that every teacher has access. [Jim Larimore] 13:27:22 Uh, to that information, so they can make their own best choices, or that, uh, collectively, they may make some choices about where we go from here. But I think the, um, uh, you know, it took… [Jim Larimore] 13:27:33 There's an alternative future version, which I'll describe as well. But I think it took people a minute because ChatGPT was released almost at the end of fall term. So people went away for the holidays. And instead of having downtime, they were scrambling. It was like the pandemic, 2.0, right? [Jim Larimore] 13:27:49 to figure out, how am I going to get a handle on my classroom? And how do I describe this to my students and unpack for them? You know what's okay to do? What's not okay to do? What is this thing built for? What's it not built for? Teachers did that. Unfortunately, I think you know the alternative. [Jim Larimore] 13:28:06 Version of this and and the alliance. [Jim Larimore] 13:28:09 had conversations with people, kind of well-placed people at what we now think of as the big AI companies, and said, you know, if you knew this was heading towards a release date, you could have started 6 months ago by getting teams of teachers together, so that this was not news to them, or that there was actually a rollout plan. [Jim Larimore] 13:28:27 And I think where we are today still is trying to make sure that they do more of that, right, that there's joint development, uh, planning, and so on, and less of the, you know, kind of midnight surprise, uh, you know, as we go. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:28:43 Apologies for dropping off there. Thanks, Will, for jumping in. I was mostly just going to say that we got some really great questions ahead of time from a number of people as they registered, and some of them seem very apropos for what we've already talked about, but maybe to just kind of provide some prompting. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:29:00 Um, some folks are particularly interested in, you know, is there, like. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:29:04 Let's just say kind of what's the top maybe major lesson or thing that people should keep in mind based on what we've seen in prior sort of technology moments. You know, suddenly there's this thing. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:29:21 As Mara said, it's always going to be a mixed feeling about it. And now here we are. And I think it'd be interesting to hear from each of you. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:29:32 to speak a little bit about that from a personal, like, as an educator, you know, yourself kind of person, but also thinking about it from more of an organizational frame. Um, you know, what, what, what, what should we be attending to that we feel like we've already learned and don't need to, like, rediscover if we're bringing it? [Ahrash Bissell] 13:29:50 now to this modern moment. [Jon Fila] 13:29:53 when I was experiencing things in the classroom around, you know, adopting learning management systems, around one-to-one devices, around the big Web 2.0, you know, craze of the early 2000s, where I saw the best. [Jon Fila] 13:30:09 uses and change happening is when people were collaborating together, when they were open and honest about their struggles, and they were coming together, not just within a school, but, you know, across organizations. They were forming groups, you know, around their communities, trying to address some of those challenges. [Jon Fila] 13:30:27 And when I saw districts come together and solve those problems, there were some really incredible advancements. But where I had some of the biggest, you know, watch out for, and I was guilty of this as well, is… [Jon Fila] 13:30:39 so often of, you know, what we saw in those years of all those movements in the early EdTech days was that it was typically a person in a district who took an interest in a topic, and then maybe they went to a conference and learned some skills from a session or two. [Jon Fila] 13:30:57 and now they're the ones tasked with leading the work in a district, right? So, it's an incredibly inefficient way to roll out some, you know, new disruptive technology, you know, particularly one that's complex, and that has a potential to change how we think of. [Jon Fila] 13:31:15 work moving forward in the future. You know, this… I call this type of change, you know, unprecedented unprecedentedness, where we're just gonna have to be okay with this, where, you know, we find out, you know, just what… [Jon Fila] 13:31:28 less than 2 days ago about this big security error, and all these sites around the world are shutting down until they can get them patched, and we were told that we should expect that regularly now, that that's going to come, you know, faster and faster. So we have to be comfortable with this type of. [Jon Fila] 13:31:45 you know, massive disruption as just part of the work now. And I think institutions partnering with those who've now spent hundreds, if not thousands of hours thinking about this and developing with these tools, you know, can help support them. [Jon Fila] 13:32:00 You know, and they can kind of prove by demonstrating their results and what they've built, and not just rely on an interested staff member who can take a couple ideas back and expect some kind of systems-wide, organizational-level change from that. [Jon Fila] 13:32:15 We can't do that again. [Mara Woody] 13:32:18 I think I'm going to say something maybe a little provocative since I work in technology and I'm in a room with individuals who also work in technology. But my experience in having worked in higher education for over 20 years is oftentimes, and I know everyone has experienced this. [Mara Woody] 13:32:34 as an institution or as an entity or as a school, you buy or procure some sort of software platform. The software platform doesn't do the thing you were actually trying to achieve, but you never actually defined what it was you were trying to achieve to start with, so then you got mad at the software company because they didn't solve the problem you didn't know you had. [Mara Woody] 13:32:52 And so that was really what I used really as the impetus for really proposing at that time when I worked at higher education institutions, lean methodology and actually defining the root cause analysis, the process, what is it we're doing long before we bring on a technology so we know what we expect of that technology. Later, whenever I worked at the state level, it was student journey mapping where we really took the time to understand the human component of the work before we start trying to layer in technology. [Mara Woody] 13:33:21 And so I'll say that's the lesson, is we are being made to feel as if we need to rush in this AI era, that somehow we're already behind, that we in education are not serving because we haven't already figured this out. But going back to that importance of stick to the vision, the mission, and what you're trying to achieve. [Mara Woody] 13:33:41 You lead AI. AI does not lead you. So you take the time to do that development work. You determine what makes sense for your students, what makes sense for what your mission is for your institution, and what those values are that you want your students to complete your college with. [Mara Woody] 13:33:57 Then AI gets defined within that, and the use of AI is defined within that. And so really, that's the important thing we need to remember is we don't need to jump to something just to jump to something. It is our role specifically in education to take the time to define this right. [Mara Woody] 13:34:13 to look at what's happening, to see the studies, to see the data, to see the outcomes and the impacts, because we all focus on what are those learning outcomes, but what is the impact of individuals interacting with AI over time? Are there mental health repercussions? Are there issues that we also need to be aware of in education when we make those decisions? [Mara Woody] 13:34:32 We need to understand that. And we need to do this right. And so that's really the deepest lesson I've seen is with things that are much lower risk than AI and technology. Now, it's important that we really take the time to do this because it's a much higher stakes. [Mara Woody] 13:34:48 Much higher stakes time period for us. [Jim Larimore] 13:34:50 Yeah, yeah. And I would just add to that that, you know, we've had this with us for four years now, right? It feels like it's gone by in a heartbeat, and at the same time, it feels like, my God, we've been at this forever, right? It's been so time consuming. But I think, you know, to play off of what Myra is describing, you know, I think we are at a point now where we can say we know enough about certain things to know whether. [Jim Larimore] 13:35:12 we need to sort them out, right? So tactically, are there, you know, red light, yellow light, green light things? If there are things that we feel pretty confident about, and we've done enough, uh, preparation, professional development support, other things, then, uh, being able to, you know, have some things move forward, you know, to always monitor and track how that's going. [Jim Larimore] 13:35:30 And to really then figure out, well, what's next? What are the things that we need to have some time set aside for so that people can pressure test something or track another similar school or district that might be doing things so that we can learn together as we go. And I think we just need to. [Jim Larimore] 13:35:46 push ourselves to think kind of systematically about that. At the same time that I think we are at an interesting moment with the industry, with big tech and the hyperscalers on AI, where they have squandered the benefit of a doubt. [Jim Larimore] 13:36:04 And I think where public distrust is high, right? And I think at that moment where they have to think about the optics of how they're perceived and about how they show up or don't show up, I think it's a time for us to put some demands on them, right? To say that, you know. [Jim Larimore] 13:36:20 education is different than selling books, right? Or different than, you know, than a retail operation. That privacy and data security, you know, is not something we can really take a lot of chances with, right? Or we can't take any chances with, right? We need… so there are things that. [Jim Larimore] 13:36:36 come along where I think there can be some constructive pressure to say, you know, make sure that you're pressure testing all of these data security things, and I think it's going to be a new challenge, set of challenges with Agentic AI, but to do as much safety testing on the. [Jim Larimore] 13:36:54 front end as you can reasonably do, so that you don't create downstream problems for everyone right, or that you don't have a huge data breach where suddenly, you know, sensitive school or student data is out on the Internet, you know, someplace right? So there. So I think we're. [Jim Larimore] 13:37:12 We're in an interesting inflection point, I think, with all of this. [Jon Fila] 13:37:15 Can I just add that, you know, I think we should think back to, you know, the fact that these tools have a strangeness to them that doesn't fall into, um. [Jon Fila] 13:37:27 just what would sit inside of an IT department, right? And so, schools haven't always had IT departments. You know, that was something… a disruptive innovation that happened, and then they grew out from finding a use for those tools. I don't think it should be left. [Jon Fila] 13:37:42 to the sole discretion of an IT department how we adopt and integrate these tools. This has to be a separate thing. This has to be a collaboration. [Jon Fila] 13:37:51 between teaching and learning departments between it departments so that they can ensure things are working. They can ensure they're safe, and they can give their best advice. But on the other hand, this isn't just working with the software, and it's on, or that setting works. [Jon Fila] 13:38:07 This is an unusual thing where often soft skills and your conversational skills matter in terms of how we work with them. And I think that this is something that may require its own department in the future, not to get too far out into my predictions yet. [Jon Fila] 13:38:26 There should be a department of AI in schools, because this is going to touch every single person's role within a district. You know, whomever that might be, their tasks will look different because these tools exist. And that's not the responsibility of an IT department, or the teaching and learning, or the curriculum director. [Jim Larimore] 13:38:46 Yeah. And John, just to riff off of that a little bit, too. So I think over the last decade or so, we've gotten more comfortable with the notion of learner variability and trying to figure out how we serve the greatest many students we possibly can and personalize the supports that they might need. [Jim Larimore] 13:39:02 I think a piece of this too is that we need to always remember that we have school variability. So in some very small rural schools, the science teacher is probably the default IT person, right? So the systems or approaches that are taken have to be built for probably the riskiest environment. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:39:13 Right? [Jim Larimore] 13:39:20 And then we can layer up from there. So I think that is a thing where policy people, district and school leaders, and, you know, our professionals in the IT field, where we really need to band together to come up with complete solutions. [Mara Woody] 13:39:33 Yeah, and that's why I appreciate the work and the links are in the chat for Common Sense Media and MIT's Impact Pinch, which are really trying to evaluate the different types of AI technology out there and really help give information around. A lot of it actually is focused around what is that socio-emotional developmental side. And so that's an important piece that we all are worried about and we should be, and it's right that we are in education. [Mara Woody] 13:39:57 And so I appreciate that there are folks who are trying to create that information. And I actually, I knew about Mit's impact bench. But I didn't know about common sense media until a few weeks ago. What I'm concerned about now is a lot of different folks are going to develop a lot of the same thing. And now it creates this confusion in the space of where we actually going for this information. And so again, trying to keep. [Mara Woody] 13:40:19 finger on the pulse of what all is out there, so that way you can try to. Whenever folks ask me, I can try to manage that and be like, Okay, here are the ones that have the best validity behind it, or the ones that we know are the best resourced and putting together that information. And so just like trying to make sure, though, that, as Jim said, we are working together and not working in silos to do that, because that's just going to actually complicate this even more. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:40:45 Lots of rich butter here. So if I could try to kind of summarize what I feel like you said so far. One, probably if you're here, you're not behind. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:40:57 And frankly, probably really nobody's technically behind. Everything's moving at a pace where even saying, oh no, I've been left behind is probably the wrong reaction. And I think, you know, the recommendation here is if you're thinking about it, you're right where you need to be. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:41:13 and and keep going right to don't start with the tech. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:41:17 So the issues that we're actually concerned about don't actually have anything to do with the tech. So start with the issues. And some of the questions here, for example, we're asking about, you know, how do we ensure that we continue to keep human agency at the forefront, that we attend, as Mara just said, to socio emotional learning needs? [Ahrash Bissell] 13:41:35 you know, growing critical thinking rather than offloading that, you know, that kind of thing. And so don't start with the tech, start with, okay, what do we actually want with this? And then it sounds like there is some prediction that as we start to see how these tools can be. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:41:52 pulled in on those bases, then there probably will need to be some more overt management of the tech in that context. I imagine that's going to be a wait and see. We'll see how that goes. But I feel like that's where you all landed. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:42:07 And I guess there's something there, though, that I would like you to dig into a little bit, though, because I think part of the anxiety everybody's feeling is that. [Jim Larimore] 13:42:07 Thank you. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:42:17 Some of the practices that are very, very common in education across all different sectors feel like they've just been. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:42:27 Kind of. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:42:29 screwed up, for lack of a better word. And I think. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:42:34 There's plenty of people who look at that stuff and say, well, those were never really that great. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:42:40 So, AI is kind of, like, forcing the issue that we should take a harder look at the way we assess. We should take a harder look at how students actually connect what we're trying to teach them to their lives, to their aspirations, etc. But meanwhile, you have everybody in the classrooms who are like, well, the reason that we did them is because we never really had great alternatives. [Jim Larimore] 13:42:43 Yeah. [Jim Larimore] 13:42:59 Right. Yeah. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:43:00 Is it actually offering an alternative, or is it simply just a destruction engine? Anyway, I would like… [Jim Larimore] 13:43:05 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What a fun question. So, you know, so I'm reminded of. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:43:05 Thoughts on that? [Mara Woody] 13:43:09 I feel like you want to start fights here, so… [Jim Larimore] 13:43:13 Yeah, I have a feeling you got the right people here, right? So years back I had a conversation with Jeffrey Canada, who's like the legendary creator of the Harlem Children's Zone, and they have such a great reputation right for doing every year kind of doing great things for students that are in their schools and. [Jim Larimore] 13:43:34 working through some of their community programs. And I asked Jeffrey what it was like because he had to think about succession planning, you know, hiring new people, onboarding, keeping the culture moving. And I said, so from the outside, you have a certain kind of reputation that you've worked really hard to earn. [Jim Larimore] 13:43:51 So but on the inside, what does it feel like when you have aspirations and you're struggling to get, you know, to make significant progress towards those aspirations? And his comment was that, you know, he kind of, a little bit tongue in cheek, but I I think it was a fairly pointed comment. [Jim Larimore] 13:44:07 He said, education is the only field that I know where you can ask what the plan for improvement is, and people will tell you we're going to do the same thing we did last year, only harder. [Jim Larimore] 13:44:17 Right? Because you don't make big gains by doing the same thing, only harder, you know, most of the time. And I think where we are at this point is that we've inherited a whole bunch of rules and practices and other things, and they worked for a certain. [Jim Larimore] 13:44:31 percentage of our students pretty reliably from one year to the next. And I think while there's so much dust and uncertainty in the air, we actually got a chance to go back to first principles and rethink what we're doing and how we do it. So, you know, I think for one of the things I was reading today. [Jim Larimore] 13:44:47 you know, it was written by a teacher who said, what I realized was that, you know, almost all of my students were using AI outside of school, no matter what the rules were inside school. And when he… he had the audacity to sit down and talk to them about it, and what he found was the students said, you know. [Jim Larimore] 13:45:06 you give me homework for this class, typically with, like, no heads up that it's coming, it's just kind of, you know, I'm told, tonight you have this homework to do, we practice a little bit in class, and boom, go do this. And you're not the only class, this is not the only class I'm taking. [Jim Larimore] 13:45:21 So other teachers do this, too. And the students, I think, who are managing complicated lives, some who may be dealing with anxiety or other, you know, other issues, then have to go home and figure out how do they do as much as they can do. [Jim Larimore] 13:45:36 with, you know, without, um, digging a deeper hole for themselves in different ways. And so this particular teacher said, um. [Jim Larimore] 13:45:44 I had to step back and say, OK, I can change the way that I structure the content delivery. I can think about if this assignment is just like an exit ticket check to make sure that the student has done something, maybe there's a different way to approach that. [Jim Larimore] 13:46:00 If it's practice, maybe I can take some of the pressure off and let them know this is just like to give you some practice time. And then he came around over the period of a few weeks to say, I actually need to pull that practice time into the classroom and think about what other things they can do outside. [Jim Larimore] 13:46:17 The second kind of layer of things that he learned from his students was that — and this is reinforced. Years back, I was on the Center for Academic Integrity Board. And the research has been pretty consistent over several decades that students are more likely to look for a shortcut or a cheat. [Jim Larimore] 13:46:34 If they feel like they've been assigned busy work, it doesn't matter anyway. So they're rational human beings. They're intelligent young people. They're going to be adults in the not too distant future. So they have to make choices about their time. And I think as educators, we have to match up with them and say, OK. [Jim Larimore] 13:46:51 Here's why I'm giving you this assignment. Here's what my expectations are for it. I thought about whether it's better to do this in class or whether there are things I need you to do at home. And if you get stuck, here's the action step that you should take. [Jim Larimore] 13:47:06 Because sometimes students, um, don't remember what they heard in the last 5 minutes of class, and they have 6 classes that they're, you know, they're thinking about that evening at the same time. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:47:12 Right. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:47:18 John? [Jon Fila] 13:47:18 So I like to think about lessons we did or didn't learn during the pandemic and how that's connected to now, you know, another massively disruptive era. [Jon Fila] 13:47:32 one of the… I was still teaching at the time, and one of the things that happened is we pretty much threw grades out the window, right? And then it didn't seem to really… [Jon Fila] 13:47:44 changed the world, because we weren't necessarily assigning letters and grades to student work any longer. We were just caring about. [Jon Fila] 13:47:52 students. And we were making sure that they had what they need, that, you know, if they were experiencing some kind of trauma or loss, that we were addressing that, and then also helping them get through instructional content, and also, you know, finding ways to verify that. [Jon Fila] 13:48:09 They could demonstrate their learning. [Jon Fila] 13:48:11 And now, somehow, because of students using AI, you know, to do something for an assignment, grades are this important thing that we just can't get rid of, but we've already been through that. So, you know, I want to, you know, think about. [Jon Fila] 13:48:27 These kinds of disruptions are coming faster and faster, and we're talking about, you know, preparing 22nd century citizens here, you know, and we're debating the use of detection tools, and I just don't think that's the right approach. [Jon Fila] 13:48:43 that's the path forward, right? You know, the same people who are critical of the AI tools. [Jon Fila] 13:48:51 may tout a detection tool as part of the solution which is using essentially, you know, the same technology. So I just want to be really careful. It kind of through my lens as a as a former media lit teacher, where you know that we're getting a lot of sensationalized messages and headlines. And I think we really should be having longer conversations about what these stories mean, where they're coming from. [Jon Fila] 13:49:14 You know, who's putting them out there, and really start to talk about. [Jon Fila] 13:49:19 what are some things we can change about our practices? You know, what are some of our roles in the systemic inequities that have played out? What new ones are being created because of the very existence of these tools? And then how do we… [Jon Fila] 13:49:32 you know, identify a role in that and change it, you know, and turn some of these back. [Mara Woody] 13:49:38 And Will's gonna throw in, to build on what Jim said earlier, students are using it outside the classroom regardless of what a classroom policy is. Will will throw in the chat a report by Brightbound where they actually surveyed teens to see how are they using AI, just kind of as a reference of how they are using AI. And then I'll kind of draw on my personal narrative, my personal story. When I was a student, the teaching methodology back then a lot of times was memorized, rote memorization. [Mara Woody] 13:50:07 worked for me. I was an incredible a student whenever I was young. Fast forward. I had children. Teaching had changed, and it wasn't memorization anymore. And I remember it was 7th grade. My daughter came home with a geometry assignment in which you had multiple ways to solve a problem. And I'm like, what are you talking about? [Mara Woody] 13:50:28 what is the equation you memorize to solve this? And the textbook talked about. And the teacher I end up talking to. And there's more. And I'm like, what do you mean? And I realized the change in educational practice from my generation to my daughter's generation. Not long after that I was continuing my studies and really started to learn more about andragogy as opposed to pedagogy. And we know how adults want to learn in a classroom that is very different than how we teach children in a classroom. And there's an evolution to all of this. And so. [Mara Woody] 13:50:57 I think the evolution occurs, but there are things that preempt it to happen more quickly. Like, we would probably not be having this webinar right here today if it weren't for COVID. COVID created the mass opportunity for us to have virtual meetings. [Mara Woody] 13:51:12 Whereas before, many of us were not in that environment at all. I see this as another one of those, this will accelerate what we were already doing in effective teaching practices. There's always a consistent and constant learning around what creates better learning opportunities for learners. [Mara Woody] 13:51:29 This is just going to accelerate it more because specifically of what AI is bringing into that classroom world. [Jim Larimore] 13:51:36 Yeah, and you know, one other thing I'll add just is that, um, so there's one other element of this which creates a kind of a rare opportunity is that, um. [Jim Larimore] 13:51:46 What AI will do to the future of work or life is a major source of stress for young people. [Jim Larimore] 13:51:52 just as it is a source of stress for us, right? So I think that if you're looking for an opportunity to be on the same side of something as your students, and if you're able to have a conversation and really unpack like what the tools do, what they're useful for, what they're not, what the impact, who really pays the price if you use a tool that allows you to cognitive offload. [Jim Larimore] 13:52:13 some things that you might need later, right? Either that in that course or later in life, because I think that that is where the true cost of the shortcut or the expedient approach comes to bear. But we need to slow down and talk to our students about that. [Jim Larimore] 13:52:28 Right? And just, like, really, genuine, you know, kind of caring terms to help them understand it. Because I think otherwise, they have a lot of stuff that they're trying to deal with at once, and this is just one of, you know, one of the elements of their worry of their worries about the future. [Jon Fila] 13:52:44 I think we should also face the fact that writing as a skill for all is a relatively new practice for humanity. You know, who's to say it won't continue to evolve and look different? You know, we've had an evolving relationship with information since we figured out how to document and share ideas outside of our own minds. [Jon Fila] 13:53:03 So it'd be foolish of us to think that we somehow in our generations happen to have reached the be-all end-all way of writing instruction. Writing is going to look different now because how we access information looks different. [Jon Fila] 13:53:18 And it's scary, and, uh, but it's kind of exciting, and, you know, I'm interested in being part of what happens next, but it's just not gonna be the five-paragraph theme anymore. [Mara Woody] 13:53:30 And one thing I do also that I keep hearing more and more is there's a lot of concern around how students are using AI, if they're using it inappropriately or appropriately. And it students kind of as this monolith. I actually live in a home where I have a college-age student who refuses to use AI, refuses to use it for college assignments when it's part of the assignment, and will take the hit on the grade for refusing to use it. [Mara Woody] 13:53:54 And I think it's important that we remember that we have students all across that spectrum in our classrooms, some who might be using it for wrong, and some who flat out refuse to use it. And I have not been successful in pushing my 19 year old daughter to think about this. But AI literacy is a skill, and it is a skill that today's world will demand, and tomorrow's world will demand even more. And it's important, as part of that educational experience, that we push learners outside of their comfort zone. [Mara Woody] 13:54:21 Part of that for many of our learners may be interacting with AI. And so it's complicated to say the least in the classroom when you have some students like who are not gonna use it at all and you have some students who are gonna use it for wrong and you have to navigate the world. And what is the best way to teach those students to use it responsibly? [Mara Woody] 13:54:38 or push them into using it if they're resistant to it. Um, doesn't help, but I kind of wanted to throw that out there, is that there is a wide range of what we're trying to successfully do for our learners. [Jim Larimore] 13:54:42 No. [Jim Larimore] 13:54:43 Yep. [Jim Larimore] 13:54:49 Yeah. And I think for every negative example of how students use AI, there's another student who may have a learning or attention issue. And the use of these tools allows them to participate or express themselves in a way that they previously weren't able to do. [Jim Larimore] 13:55:05 And the positive reinforcement of suddenly being able to participate in that way or getting positive feedback, especially for young people, I say for people of any age, that's a really powerful motivator. And I don't think we can afford to sort things out. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:55:17 Yeah. [Jim Larimore] 13:55:21 thinking that they're all, you know, good or all bad. I think, you know, this is where, you know, I hope teachers will have their detective hats, you know, handy so that they can help us figure out, like, what the right use of the tools or the optimal uses might be, under what circumstances. [Jim Larimore] 13:55:37 to accomplish what with which learners, right? There's a lot to figure out here. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:55:43 Yeah, and I appreciated your comment, Mara, because I think, you know, there's so many discussions where it feels like… [Ahrash Bissell] 13:55:49 It goes for a while, and then someone finally points out that there are other agents in the room. In fact, the ones about whom we're all theoretically talking about, which is the students themselves. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:56:01 Who are not always brought into the discussion on what is it that we're supposed to be achieving when we're sitting in this classroom or, you know, going through the paces of education and what do we believe should be true about the way these tools are being used and the degree to which. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:56:19 that's helpful or a hindrance. And I'm actually at another conference that is all about involving teens and young adults in kind of, you know, thinking about media and kind of how these things affect them in their lives. And there is a study that was just shared. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:56:38 That showed that young kids when they're sort of presented with technology, including AI type things, their reaction by and large is one of curiosity. It's sort of, ooh, that looks really cool. Oh my, that looks different than I yet understand the world. And then what you see is this slide. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:56:53 As they get into teenager doom where now it's all about doom. Oh my gosh, these things are just going to be terrible and my life is so unclear and you know, what are they doing to us kind of thing. And it just to me that paints such a perfect picture of, okay. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:57:08 Right? Like, there's a lot of stuff swirling around here, and I think we need to find a way to navigate this space, not where it's like, oh, they are simply the recipients of our discovery, but where they're actually journeying on that with us in a more overt way. [Ahrash Bissell] 13:57:25 Anyway, we are, not surprisingly, almost out of time. So I would like you each to answer one of the questions that was shared, which is to ask, and I won't limit you to one sentence, but it did say that. What is the most important action? [Ahrash Bissell] 13:57:41 educators or educational leaders can take this year to build a human-centered future for AI and education. [Mara Woody] 13:57:51 I'll go first because Jim and John will be much more profound than me. I'm going to say you have to be at the table. You have to engage. You have to understand it. You have to know it. You have to be part of making the decision of how it will be used in the future. And that is the most important thing that every single one of us as educators. [Mara Woody] 13:58:09 can do, because if we don't, someone else will. And again, do we want those people? And I think we can all make guesses about the commercial interests or the resource interests of individuals who might do it in our behalf. [Mara Woody] 13:58:21 But it is important that we take responsibility for that because that is what we do as educators. [Jim Larimore] 13:58:26 Yeah. Plus one to all of that. So I'm going to put John in the third spot so he'll have to really shine to help the rest of us. So I'm reminded of Flannery O'Connor, who is a Southern female writer. [Jim Larimore] 13:58:42 who once said, how will I know what I think until I see what I say? Right? So once you have that seat at the table, I think you know the human mind is still the best computational device sensing mechanism that we have. Right? So I think teachers should. [Jim Larimore] 13:58:58 Take a breath as they're seated. Think about the students who they work with. Think about the learning that they try and foster. And trust their intuition to talk about how it is that we can use the tools that are now available to us. [Jim Larimore] 13:59:13 And, you know, for what purposes as we go? Because I do think at the end of the day, the technology has to serve humanity. Right now, I think the technology is racing ahead, and, you know, we're getting false reassurances that this is going to improve everything. And I think, so what's the plan for that? How does it do that? [Jim Larimore] 13:59:31 And I think this is where teachers as highly trained professional skeptics can ask those good questions and help us push the conversation along. [Jon Fila] 13:59:40 I think the capabilities of these tools far exceed what's currently happening in our field, and I think what most people are aware of in terms of what they can do. These are the greatest accessibility tools that humans have ever created, if we are to use them that way. [Jon Fila] 13:59:55 So we can have a more accessible, inclusive, and individualized approach to what we're doing. That's possible to begin right now and to do that across entire systems. So what I would say an educator should think about doing, some steps they take right now, just experiment, share your findings. [Jon Fila] 14:00:16 You know, be the lifelong learner you want your students to be, right? We're always hearing people say that, I want my students to be lifelong learners. Do that! You know, demonstrate that for them. [Ahrash Bissell] 14:00:28 Brilliant. Well, we're at time. And I guess what I would say is these are the types of discussions we certainly love to have and do have both internally and externally, both to guide our own work, but also to provide a space. [Ahrash Bissell] 14:00:44 for people who are grappling with these issues to grapple with them with us. So, um, I would encourage you, feel free to get in touch with everybody here, their contact info's there. If you enjoyed this discussion and feel like you kind of want more, it would be really good to know that. You could share that in your. [Ahrash Bissell] 14:01:01 in the chat or just reach out to us directly. We're certainly hoping to create more spaces as we kind of co-navigate this future, and we're also looking to make sure that we broaden who can participate in those conversations and try to figure that out as we go along. [Ahrash Bissell] 14:01:17 So, thank you again to all of our panelists. We really appreciate you, appreciate your time, appreciate your thoughts, and I hope everybody has a great rest of their day.