S06E06 - FDTL - Karen Worrell === [00:00:00] Karen: Thank goodness the the kids are really good that before they leave, they always make sure they say goodbye. And so, um, that is a moment I'll never forget. 'cause that was my, I felt like that was almost my goodbye to him. Like my forever. Good luck, Tim was that kiss and then his beautiful smile after. So yeah, like he, um, you know, I think it's important to remember that. When you're, when you're, um, grieving, tears are made up of water and salt and those two things we know to be very healing. [00:00:34] ANNCR: Is there anyone out there from darkness to life contains the real stories of individuals who found their way out of the darkness caused by mental health challenges and substance abuse. If these stories resonate with you and you or someone you love, need help, and don't know where to turn, our collective journey is here for you. Please reach out when you're. Ready to our collective journey.ca or on Facebook at our collective journey. [00:00:59] Poncho: Uh, welcome. So, uh, there's a moment in every healing journey when the, uh, the world feels heavy and then somehow, um, a spark arrives. And sometimes that spark comes from community and sometimes it comes from, uh, ceremony, and sometimes it comes from people that we, uh, carry in our hearts, uh, after they're gone. And today we sit with. Someone who understands all of that, and someone who gets that spark more than most. A, a woman who tends to fire literally and spiritually. Uh, a woman who knows what it means to give and to grieve, and to rise and to reconnect through culture and land and legacy. And so this isn't a conversation just about loss. This is a conversation about the fire that keeps us going even in the darkest of nights. Uh, my name is Poncho here at the Plugged in Media Network Studios, and this is from Darkness to Life, and we are honored to welcome, uh, Karen Worrell. Did I get it right? [00:01:58] Karen: Yeah. Yes. Thank you. [00:01:59] Poncho: Thank you, [00:02:01] Karen: boo. Good morning, Tanay. Okie. [00:02:04] Poncho: And, uh, you are, uh, a part of the, uh, the Fire Keeper's Women's Society? [00:02:08] Karen: That's correct. Yep. [00:02:09] Poncho: And someone whose work sits at the, at the intersection of ceremony and community [00:02:18] Karen: Yes. [00:02:18] Poncho: And healing. [00:02:19] Karen: Absolutely. [00:02:21] Poncho: And in a lot of, uh, indigenous nations, uh, fire keepers hold a, a sacred responsibility. [00:02:28] Karen: Yeah. [00:02:29] Poncho: Um, tending ceremonial fires that serve as a, a bridge from the way I understand it, a bridge from the physical world, from the physical world and the spirit world. And, and, and this is a role that can take years of, of preparation. [00:02:41] Karen: That's correct, yes. So the women's, uh, fire Keeper Society was formed. You know what? I've lived in Let or Lethbridge, I lived in Lah Perie, but I lived in Medicine Hat now a long time Redcliffe area, a long time. And uh, you know, for years. I've looked for a community that, um, 'cause we've had Mewa in here a long time of course. And that's a, an amazing center that does a lot for the indigenous community here in medicine at, but we needed still another society that would collect us and gather us and, um, help us because we have, there's no First Nation right? Like right by here. So we know that we're all guests here. Yeah. Um, and so. It's hard when you're far away from your community or you've been disconnected from your community for a long time as we were and had been. Um, you know, you really realize how important those, those, uh, types of community organizations are, and we were missing that. So the fire keepers now has been around for a few years. Um. And it's a great organization of women, indigenous women, Metis, Blackfoot, Ojibwe, uh, Cree, you name it. We're there, we were represented in that organization. Um, we come together, we hold a, uh, with the exception of the summer, we take the summer off. Yeah. But we hold craft circles at that with in conjunction with the medicine At college, they were held monthly. You register, you come and we'll beat earrings. I'm wearing some earrings. I did this past week. [00:04:05] Poncho: You made [00:04:06] Karen: those? No, I did. Yes. Well, I mean with the help of some amazing teachers at the fire keepers, I'm not gonna tell you this is skill I had before that [00:04:14] Poncho: date. 'cause the moment we sat down, that's one of the first things that I noticed. [00:04:17] Karen: Yeah, [00:04:17] Poncho: yeah. Like I like those. [00:04:18] Karen: Yeah. Yeah. I made those myself. I [00:04:19] Poncho: really did. And what are you wearing around your neck? [00:04:21] Karen: Uh, around my neck is my, oh, I made this with the fire keepers as well, and I'm wearing my medicine bag. So, um, I quite honestly won't lie, I hadn't worn my medicine bag for a while. It's been a tough, um, 2025 was tough and so I, I won't lie, I leaned a little bit away from some of my medicines. Um, but I'm trying to make sure, that's one of the things I'm being a little more intentional about this year is bringing that back because [00:04:46] Poncho: is that hard to do? [00:04:47] Karen: Um, no, not really. It just in a little bit in the sense of. Ah, gosh. I, I just hate to sometimes 'cause I know my soul is a little broken right now and I hate to say, use the word broken. [00:05:00] ANNCR: Yeah. [00:05:00] Karen: My soul is a little bit heavy right now, maybe, is what I wanna say. 'cause we're never really broken. We're just, we have those moments right where our spirit is. Um, and in fact, a lot of times in an indigenous way, when we talk about alcoholism too, the way our elders will refer to it is they've lost their spirit. Like their spirit is just out of them right now. And so that's how I've kind of felt this last year is my spirit was a little gone and so I felt it wasn't really safe for me to use my medicines a whole bunch. Um, but I feel it's important this year to bring that back. So it's been a little hard. Um, 'cause it makes me sad 'cause like. [00:05:37] Poncho: And, and, and we'll talk about if that's okay with you. Absolutely. We, we'll talk about why you're sad Yeah. And why 2025 was, was so difficult. Yeah. And 2026 is also difficult. [00:05:49] Karen: Yeah. [00:05:49] Poncho: Have you found your spirit? Are you in the process of tracking it down again? [00:05:52] Karen: Yes. Yeah, I am. And I think that's a very conscious decision you have to make. I think that when you've had things that. Knock you down. Um, change you and change you in a way, it's so funny 'cause when things happen, you know, we, we consistently look for that person you were before that moment happened and that person really doesn't exist anymore. 'cause it now you are, that person now has a life experience that. You can't erase, right? And so, no. [00:06:20] Poncho: And, and once you've been through something, something that you've been through, it does change you. [00:06:24] Karen: Yeah. [00:06:25] Poncho: As a person, [00:06:26] Karen: definitely. [00:06:27] Poncho: Not necessarily, I'm not saying for, for greater or for worse, but it just changes you who you are. And maybe you look at, you look at the world. Do you look at the world differently now than say you did a year and a half ago? [00:06:39] Karen: Absolutely. Yeah, definitely. And you know what's funny? 'cause that struggle doesn't just happened. Did it happen like at home? It happens with work, right? You start to question everything like, am I doing the right thing? Am I doing what honors where I wanna be now? Um, am I doing what honors that moment and those moments? Yeah. Yeah. [00:07:00] Poncho: You had a, you had a huge loss. [00:07:02] Karen: Excuse me. Yeah, 2024. So in early 2024, my mom took her journey home. And then in October, so October 13th, we celebrated, um, a beautiful Thanksgiving day. With all of our family and we had the normal Turkey. And, um, my, my grandson, who at the time was almost 13 months, we had been lucky enough to celebrate his, uh, first birthday with him a few weeks before, before Thanksgiving, and, um. Thanksgiving. We had a most beautiful Thanksgiving, and we all, they went, the kids live. My, my daughter lives across the street. They went home and at about, gosh, about 1130, all of a sudden we had knocking on the door, it was my son-in-law screaming that Denver was dead. [00:07:50] Poncho: Denver's your grandson? [00:07:52] Karen: Yeah, Denver was my 13 month old grandson, sorry, excuse me. Almost, almost 13 months. And, um. Um, we are, um, starting to talk about the why and what happened Now, we, we waited because, um. People have big opinions on things, right? Like everyone has an opinion on what you do now. Um, so we are, yeah, we are cos sleepers. We believe in co-sleeping. Co-sleeping for us is very normal. In fact, if you look throughout history and, and culture from cultures, co-sleeping is very normal. And so he passed because of co-sleeping. Um. And it's, and I don't blame co-sleeping. What I blame is the fact that we don't teach safe co-sleeping [00:08:36] Poncho: and, and let's talk exactly what, what co-sleeping [00:08:38] Karen: means. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So we co-sleep with our babies. So when our babies are born, and my daughter was breastfeeding, I was so proud of her. She was one of the first one of us that was able to. Breastfeed and stick with it and like go with it. So especially when you're breastfeeding, it's easier just to sleep with your babies and have them, um, well, [00:08:56] Poncho: and that, and that human connection that yeah. That bond that only a mother and their child can experience. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think a lot of that comes from skin on skin contact. Yeah, [00:09:04] Karen: absolutely. Right. And so, um, so they had put him to bed that night and, um, uh, went in to go to bed and he had gotten in between the bed and the wall and, um. [00:09:19] Poncho: Whew, take your time. [00:09:24] Karen: And had suffocated. So my daughter had pulled him out and started to, uh, perform CPR while talking to 9 1 1, of course. And, um, my grand or my son-in-law came to get us. So my husband and I ran across the street and my husband took over. For my daughter, I'm performing CPR. Um, as we waited for the ambulance to show up, um, as they came in, it ended up being my nieces. Um. Partner. So when he came in, they had actually come to the house, didn't realize it was, 'cause they had actually thought it was a 13-year-old, not a 13 month old. 13 month old. So, um, when my, when, when he walked, when Connor walked into the house, he looked at us and he was, 'cause he was just so taken back, he actually thought it was going to be Madeline because of the age. [00:10:22] Poncho: Yeah. [00:10:23] Karen: And Keith. And so when he realized it was Denver, um. He was pretty shocked. Um, so we ended up having to go to the hospital and, uh, about one o'clock in the morning, 1 1 30 in the morning. Um, they came in. And it was funny 'cause when they came off funny, but it was like ironic when they came in, they had started talking to us and the doctor had said, you know, we were able to kinda get him back and we thought, oh my God, he's okay. But then he went on to say that they just couldn't keep it. So we had to go into the room where they were still keeping him alive by performing CPR and make the decision for them to stop. [00:11:07] Poncho: You were looking at Denver when this was happening? Yeah, [00:11:10] Karen: yeah, yeah. So it was, um, so we got to sit with him for a little while. So we sat and held him, said our goodbyes, as much as you can, say goodbye to a little person that's supposed to be your legacy and continue, um, you know, life and. Like I said, it is just not a natural, it's just not natural. Right. You, it's just so different [00:11:38] Poncho: than that's, that's something you don't prepare for. [00:11:39] Karen: Yeah. Any And I, yeah. I don't even, honestly, even parents that like, here, their children are sick. I don't know how they can ever, how you can ever really prepare for that. So I'm kind of grateful that it wasn't a long 'cause I, I don't know, it's, my daughter and I have talked about this. You know, it's funny 'cause when, um, my daughter now has, um. Some really good lost mom friends, and it's 'cause every time I hear what they went through, I'm like, oh my gosh, I couldn't imagine. Oh my gosh. I, when then they hear our story and they say, oh, I couldn't imagine. Um, yeah, it was, and so we thank goodness my, like my family, I have a very close family and we're all here in Medicine Hat. So we had called everybody and everybody had come to the hospital. So we were all there. My niece and my sisters. Um, my one sister Carol stayed home with my one grandson that was still sleeping. So, 'cause my daughter has three children, one's 11, one is now four. And then of course. Denver at the time was one and a half, or one was one 13 months, not one and a half, 13 months. Um, and so my sister, uh, her husband, my, my, my brother-in-law and my niece and her partner stayed until the funeral home came and took him and did those things. 'cause I couldn't let my daughter see that I had to. Protect her from a little bit of something from that night. Um, 'cause we were all still like grieving the loss of my mom, who was a huge part of our family. And Oh, [00:13:22] Poncho: so within a, within a year you lost your mother and your grandson? [00:13:25] Karen: Yeah, my mom took her journey in February and my grandson in October. So it was just a few months. We actually, I always said that I, because my mom, so my mom had dementia. She had lived with us for a year and then it just got to a point where we couldn't take care of her. Probably she wasn't thriving at our house anymore, so we had to place her, um. And so that was a big, that was 'cause that decision to take your parents who, and my mom and I were really close and my mom when she was starting to, to lose her memory and, and she, you know, they'd still have those moments where they were kind of, um, where they were. There like themselves, like they still had those moments where they were in and out of of memory. And so she, those moments when she was there and she would say to me, please, like, I know what's happening. Please don't ever like put me in a home or like, please take care of me. And so when we had to place her, it was big deal to move her from our house. But you have to, when they're not thriving anymore, um, and they're just not, and you just see it. So my mom was placed, um, we had had to place my mom and she was there not quite a year. I think she was in the home not quite a year before she passed. So, um, yeah, and they left me a voice message. That's how I found out. I woke up, she was sick, and we left her late at night. We're gonna, I was up, it was about five 30 in the morning. My sister and I had gotten up to go shower, uh, to go back to the, back to the home. And I looked at my phone and there was a voice message. So that's how I found out my mom had passed is they'd left me a voice message. So I thought I was, and then, and then they bugged us that day. So within a few hours we had to go and like clear out her stuff. 'cause they phoned to let us know like, it's the end of the month. If you don't get her in, you'll have to, you don't get her stuff out, you'll have to pay a whole nother month. It goes like within, she passed away at like two in the morning or three in the morning. And by like 12 or one o'clock the next day, we had her stuff out of. Not that at that [00:15:25] Poncho: you, you haven't even had a moment to collect your thoughts at that [00:15:28] Karen: point? No, so we had, so we went back and thank, like, thank goodness we didn't bring a lot of stuff. We had like certain things that were really key to her, to her memory. Right. Because when you have dementia, you have to be really, you try to keep them surrounded by things that they will, when those memories come back, they will see familiarity, right? It's, it's tough to move them someplace where they don't know anything and they're in a locked unit. Ugh, the way we deal with our seniors, I'm not a fan. I just think that we just need to be more, they deserve more dignity than, than what those places are set up for. [00:16:04] Poncho: There is a huge difference between western culture and eastern culture. Yeah. In terms of how we look after our elders, as in their, in terms of how we look after our parents and Absolutely. And our grandparents. [00:16:14] Karen: Yeah. [00:16:15] Poncho: Um, and as, as you share your loss with us and as you tell your story, you keep. Mentioning family, how important, how important is family? Yeah. To, to healing. [00:16:29] Karen: It's everything. It really is. You know, that night, uh, when Denver passed that night was just so you, it's weird 'cause you, you almost go outer body, right? You have to, it's like your body knows and it needs to defend itself and it needs to protect itself. So it's like you're walking in this. Shell in your body, your spirit's like walking outside of itself. It's, it's a weird thing to say, but it's kind of how, it's kind of how it felt. Um, so surreal. Um, yeah. Family is everything. I really wouldn't know what to do without my family, honestly. [00:17:03] Poncho: How, how do you even start to understand how you feel after something like that that happens? I, I, I, I mean the loss and the hurt and the disbelief and the anger there. There must have been lots of anger. [00:17:20] Karen: Oh my gosh. There's still, I find. I have more anger now than what I did then. And I think what's happening is, um, I've cried so much. I still do. It's, it's probably, it's probably still a daily thing. Um, especially in the morning. Mornings are rough. You wake up, your brain starts to turn on and goes, oh, crap. Right? And, and it, it turns back onto all those things. Um, yeah, it, it really, oh gosh, I don't even know where to begin, you know? Anger I find I'm more angry now. Like there's moments when, example, so Reese, a couple weekends ago, I went to a class to teach me. I'm having some problems with my, uh, joints and so I went to this wonderful woman, she's part of the, the Fire Keeper Society actually, and she teaches how to heal yourself, right? Proper eating proper care, things to take. Um, and I had went early 'cause I was so anxious. I was going by myself. I don't normally, especially right now, I won't lie, I normally don't do things by myself, but this is the year of pushing myself back into life. And so I pushed myself to go by myself. I got there early 'cause I was really anxious and I wanted to make sure I was in a seat where I was comfortable. And this girl comes in. She was late, and then she also stood out talking to the host for an extra 10 minutes. So not only was she late, but she held us up an extra 10 minutes, and then she comes in and because she's decided she wants to sit beside the person that I'm next to, she's going to move me over. And you know, normally, normally there was a time when I'd like, yeah, no problem. Might've moved over. But that's the difference between who I am now and who I was. Like a couple. Yeah. I just have such a lower tolerance for, especially when I'm anxious, I get anxious a lot easier. Now I have a lower tolerance for being. Generous in those moments. Like just to say, yeah, no big deal. I'll move 'cause that's really what I should have done. [00:19:16] Poncho: Yeah. [00:19:17] Karen: But no, that, that anger in me just shot off and went, well that's, you know, I kind of looked at her like, yeah, and, and that's just not who I ever wanna be. But that's right. Now there's definitely moments that happen that I'm not proud of. [00:19:32] Poncho: And when and when that happens. Does, do those, those, do those actions and reactions surprise you? [00:19:38] Karen: Yeah, absolutely. Like, don't get me wrong, I, I'm not like I've been perfect or a saint my whole life. There's definitely moments when I've blown up. You're, you're, because [00:19:47] Poncho: you're human, you're, you're human. We're, we're all human. Yeah. Needs to be expected. [00:19:51] Karen: Yeah. Yeah. It's just not how I ever wanna present myself though. And so, but that, it's just so hard right now to, to. I don't know, how do I say control those, those moments I had really gotten really good, especially with how I changed from my youth and the things that I went through. I kind of, I tried to turn around and not always, but I'm just finding myself right now, so easily set off and I don't, I don't like it, but it's part of that human reaction when you're, I always say, you know. People, you just get so full of energy and disappointment and the different things that happen, and then you go out and so you're already full, and then something happens and you snap. Right? Yeah. And you're like, ah, shit, that's, [00:20:40] Poncho: yeah. [00:20:40] Karen: That's not how I wanna represent myself. But [00:20:43] Poncho: yeah. You, you, you've taken all the weight that you can. Yeah. And somebody comes along and adds even [00:20:48] Karen: more to it. Yeah. A feather [00:20:50] Poncho: and, [00:20:50] Karen: and the feather sets you off, [00:20:51] Poncho: and that's what breaks you. Yeah. And, and that's okay because, because you've acknowledged it. Yeah. You, you, you've recognized it as, as a, as, as a fire keeper. [00:21:03] Karen: Mm-hmm. [00:21:04] Poncho: Can you find healing in that? [00:21:07] Karen: Uh, yeah, I think that's one of the things this last, so my mom was someone who was taught to kind of be embarrassed about the indigenous part of herself. So, um, she lost her status because of who Mike Kum married. Um, and then she, you know, Mike Kum unfortunately, um, at. Killed herself at 50 with alcoholism. So my mom was a young girl when she lost her mom and then she got angry. She spent some amazing years when she was young on the, at the, um, Fort Wilma First Nation in Thunder Bay where she grew up, has amazing experience, but then was tarnished. Um, so one of the things that I've spent. The last many years doing was, especially while she was still here and healthy, was to try to show her the pride that really she should really have in that. Because indigenous people are some of the most resilient, um, caring, oh my gosh, some of the most incredible people I've ever met. [00:22:08] Poncho: You weren't given a choice. [00:22:10] Karen: No. [00:22:10] Poncho: You had to, you had to be, you had to be resilient. [00:22:12] Karen: Yeah. [00:22:13] Poncho: You needed [00:22:14] Karen: to be absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Without resilience, uh, um, I really, I really don't know what my mom would've been. My mom would've probably been an alcoholic, quite honestly. So my, my, um, my dad was, and, and because of how he was brought up, like when I bring these things up, I always say that, you know, everyone is who they are because of their experience, right? Your life. Develops you, right? Your life, your circumstance, your experience, [00:22:44] Poncho: every choice that you've ever made right in your life is the person that you are right here and right now. [00:22:48] Karen: Or that has made, been made for you even, right? Yes. Yes. Like, like those things, those things shape you. They, um, and so. My mom could have made decisions to be an alcoholic and really abusive. And she totally was. Not that. My dad, unfortunately, when my, with my mom, when he was young, he drank a lot and was violent. Um, and so that's why they divorced, right? And so, um, but yeah, I think that resiliency, I think indigenous people, anyone that I've met has, has been. The most incredibly resilient people. And when you speak to them about their, um, experience or lived experience and you see what a beautiful person they still are, that to me is not just resilience, but it's. What I want to resemble. Yeah. And so it's been really important to have those people in my life this last couple years to remind me of who I wanna be because it's been easy to be angry or to cry a lot. Yeah. And just give up and just walk away. It would've been easy to do that this last year. You're, [00:24:00] Poncho: you're a lot stronger than you know. I mean, the fact that you're here talking about it, I think that speaks volumes. Thank you. And, and, and there's a, a connection between being strong and, and being humble. And it's been my experience that the strongest people I've met. Don't realize just how humble they are, which is also another wonderful quality to, to, to see in you. [00:24:21] Karen: Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate that. And it's funny, when I came here today, I, I was really thinking like, when, when Carly, when I set this up last week. Yeah. And, and I'm thinking, who wants to hear from me? Like what? Like it's really hard. 'cause it's hard to. Self-talk. Right? It's so important. That's self-talk to be gentle to yourself. And that's not always when you've had lived experience, that's not always the easiest thing to do, [00:24:45] Poncho: but you matter and, and your story matters. [00:24:48] Karen: Thank you. I appreciate [00:24:49] Poncho: that. And people are listening and, and, and I and, and there's quite a few things I want to ask you. Uh, and I wanna get back to Denver, if that's okay. Mm-hmm. [00:24:57] Karen: Absolutely. [00:24:58] Poncho: Uh, your relationship with him, um, how did being Denver's grandmother. As a woman, as a fire keeper, how, how did it, how did it shape you? [00:25:10] Karen: Oh gosh, my grandkids are such a gift. I'm so, my daughter Miranda, um, she had her first baby when she was a teen mom. And I will lie, I of course, as I'm I, that wasn't happy. I wasn't like, woo hoo, 16. All right, let's have a baby. Like who? Right? That right. And so I tried convincing her like, babe, you know, this is not a good decision. You know, you're gonna be 40 and you're gonna feel old and like, you know, let's, you know. You know, but she decided to have her and I'm so grateful. I tell my granddaughter all the time that she is the person we needed and we didn't even know it. She brought so much light and like love into our life and my mom was so great 'cause she, you know, I was giving my daughter a hard time, of course, as I should have been at the time, and my mom went to her and just said, babe, it's gonna be okay. [00:26:05] Poncho: Yeah, [00:26:05] Karen: I'm here. I don't work anymore. I got you. And they did. They were, I worked full time and Miranda went back to school. 'cause I told her like, you are, you are her mom. [00:26:17] Poncho: Yeah. [00:26:18] Karen: You now have a responsibility to make a life for this little girl. I'm not doing it. And I, 'cause I needed to be. 'cause I so often teen moms end up having another baby within a very short time. Yeah. So I needed her to know that wasn't gonna happen. Not that I, not that she was going that direction, but I needed to set that boundary of like, yeah, this is it. Like you are her mom. You now have a big responsibility to make a life for this little person. And she did. She went back to school. She went to high school. Even she didn't like, she was older, but she went, she knew and she didn't care. She went back, she got her grade 12. And then went, uh, to, and got her ea so education assistant. Mm-hmm. Degree. Mm-hmm. Um, she's married now and so that's when she had, uh, rj, so Royal and James, and then she had Denver. Right. Um, oh my gosh. Grandkids change your life. They bring so much joy and they change you. They make you softer. They make you, you know, the things you used to have to say no to your kids. You can say yes. [00:27:20] Poncho: Well, so I mean, there's, you're, you're still a, a, a mother of sorts, but there's a big difference between being a mother and being a grandmother. [00:27:27] Karen: Yes. [00:27:28] Poncho: Right. You get to do all the fun stuff. [00:27:30] Karen: Yeah. [00:27:31] Poncho: Being a grandmother, [00:27:32] Karen: right. You can say yes. Because, oh, I, we do, we say yes to everything. We're, yeah, we're big suckers, but it's okay. We like it. [00:27:40] Poncho: I'm another chocolate bar. 'cause at the end of the day, they're going back home to mom. Not your, not your [00:27:44] Karen: concern. Yeah. You live at home, at your mom. You just have whatever. You have ice cream for supper if you want. Absolutely. And even more so now, like now that we've lost Denver, it's, it's more now. 'cause you know what, and I don't know if you've ever heard the story about wear the dress. Have you heard the word, the dress story? [00:28:03] Poncho: I, I, I, I don't know all of the details, but. But please share it. [00:28:07] Karen: So there is a story that's online, and what it was was a mom had bought her daughter a beautiful dress to wear to a wedding. She was gonna be part of the wedding. Her daughter was little and was really excited about the dress and had asked her over and over, mama, can I wear the dress? Mama can wear the dress. And of course, no you can't. We're going to a wedding in a couple months. You need that dress for that wedding. And unfortunately, just before the wedding, the little girl was killed, never got to wear the dress. So now her mama tells her story and says, the best advice I can give is let them wear the dress. And it's, of course the dress is a symbol of just for let them do it, right? [00:28:49] Poncho: Yeah. [00:28:49] Karen: That doesn't mean let them be spoiled brats. That doesn't mean, you know, give them everything they want, but [00:28:55] Poncho: let them live. [00:28:55] Karen: Let them live, [00:28:56] Poncho: let them be free. [00:28:57] Karen: Yep. I'm really excited. I, I talk about this a bit, about this generation of children that are growing up with such a freedom to be who they are. I am really excited to see what they do with that. Really excited. It's a different generation than what we were, you know, how we were completely, you know, you were in your place and, um, I was like, even coming here today, I, I had mentioned before we started chatting about, you know, I was not someone who was taught to talk about myself. I certainly wasn't taught to talk about the violence I grew up with. In fact, quite the opposite. That's a family secret. We keep it our, to ourselves. We don't talk about that stuff. Um, and now we teach them, you know, we teach them, talk about yourself, live your life, be, you know, so I'm really excited to see what this generation does with that freedom. It'll be interesting to see. [00:29:45] Poncho: It'll be, uh, incredibly interesting because they have a, a whole new different way of thinking. [00:29:51] Karen: Absolutely. [00:29:51] Poncho: And I think it's a good way of thinking. [00:29:53] Karen: Yeah. Yeah. I'm excited. It'll be interesting [00:29:55] Poncho: to see, don't you know, don't stifle the things that you know you're not supposed to talk about anymore. Don't stifle you know, the bad things that happened in your world, because at the end of the day, the, you know, the bad is just as powerful as the good in terms of it shapes who we are and from what you've told me. In the 13 months that that Denver blessed your world and your family's world, he has had a lasting legacy just not on, you know, you grandmother and his family, but those that didn't even know him. Yes. He was a huge part of the rise up festival. [00:30:31] Karen: Yes. Last year. Oh my gosh. I was, so, so one of the ways we've taken to honor him is, uh, we have these beautiful pictures of him and we, uh, so my daughter has created a page on Facebook, hashtag at Denver's destinations. And so we ask people when they travel or do things to bring that picture with them just so he continues and he, you know, he's there and thought of and his name. 'cause that's a big thing. Right. Carry his name on. [00:30:58] Poncho: Yeah. [00:30:59] Karen: And so last year, my oldest daughter, Kayla, had seen the rise up and had gotten ahold of the, the group and said, listen, my sister, you know, we, my, my nephew passed away and this is how we're honoring him. Would any of your, um. Pilots bring him up. Oh my gosh. Well, not just one. I don't think any of them didn't have him. I think they all brought him up and shared his picture and shared his story with everyone that was there that day. And. It continues. They, uh, so he's been to Italy now with the, with the different pilots and like all over the world with the different pilots. And the pilots are, have, have connection. They still will message us once in a while and say, we're going here, we're bringing him. Um, [00:31:44] Poncho: and, and I've seen the slides show of, of Denver story and the first thing that strikes me is, is the smile. [00:31:52] Karen: Mm-hmm. Yeah. [00:31:53] Poncho: On Denver. And then the smile that you can see in his eyes. Yeah. I mean, there is happiness there, there is joy there, there is love there. And to see a picture of Denver with that smile being held by, in this case, pilots and, and you know, those that are flying with the pilots of, of the Rise Up festival and hot air balloons all around the world, the smiles on the pilots faces. And that's Denver's legacy. [00:32:20] Karen: Yeah, it is smart. [00:32:22] Poncho: You know, I, I mean, here you have really, as you said, your grandson's been around the world and he has caused these incredibly, wonderfully powerful, positive feelings in people that he's never met. [00:32:33] Karen: Yeah. [00:32:34] Poncho: And that's a pretty amazing feeling. [00:32:37] Karen: Hmm. Yeah, absolutely. I have a friend of mine, Kelly, she is, um, um, she's someone I rely on for some guidance and she actually went to London recently and she said, I'm gonna bring him with me and, and we'll go do some stuff. And so she messaged us and she had had a bit of a time she was supposed to go with the group and they kind of left her behind and she was feeling kind of blah and sad. She said, she opened up her purse and there was Denver. There was this beautiful smile, this, and, and it was like, he said, Kelly, I got you. Let's go. And she spent the entire day with Denver and everywhere they went and. And she shared that it was, the way she shared the story too, was, so, you're right. It's that legacy, right? It's that, um, [00:33:25] Poncho: and did you think it would spread as fast? Did, did you think that we'd be sitting here today talking about Denver's legacy? I mean, really, and really he accomplished and continues to accomplish so much in this world, [00:33:39] Karen: right? Yeah. No, I I, we could never have like that moment. That day, that festival just totally solidified that we were on the right track. And, and because of that, it really took off like it and, and literally it took off. I mean, ironically enough for Ohio, literally and figuratively. Literally it took off. [00:33:58] Poncho: Yeah. [00:33:59] Karen: Um. Yeah, it's brought so much, so much happiness and so much like moments that we really needed this last year, you know, joy. [00:34:08] Poncho: And has it, and has it helped you and your family heal, do you think? [00:34:11] Karen: Absolutely. Um, and I, you know, healing, I think healing is something that happens on such, it's not linear, right? It's, it's not a straight line. Um, there's days when that healing feels like you haven't done any work on it. And then there's days where it feels. Like you've done great work on it. And these moments, like the Hot Air festival, the rise up, yeah. Hot air festival. It's so important to hear in medicine Hot and has become really important to us, um, as a family [00:34:41] Poncho: and for the grieving I I, I think for the grieving as well, you know, because when you, you lose someone, you don't instantly grieve right away. No. [00:34:49] Karen: Yeah. And, you know, and not just, you just walk on such a cloud. We, there's, um, uh, there's a, every December there is a, um, where they do a thing where they honor and they light candles for children that have been lost. And it's something that they do. They do it at a certain time, and it's supposed to help create a wave of light for these children that we've lost. And we went, last year, we went just after Denver and. We went again this year and all of us went. You really realize in those moments when you do something a second year, how little you were actually present in that first year because I had no idea where it was. Like we're driving there, I'm like, I have no idea where I'm going. I had to put it on my GPS and I was there last year. [00:35:36] Poncho: Yeah. [00:35:36] Karen: But it just shows you how you kind of, that first few months, I'd say three to six months you're in such a cloud. Um, I was grateful I had a few months off work 'cause I don't know how I would've worked and done any work. [00:35:49] Poncho: I do you think that cloud, do you, do you think that's your spirit? Do you think that's your mind protecting yourself? Uh uh, at least to some. Degree before you have to come to terms with [00:36:00] Karen: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. [00:36:02] Poncho: With the hurt and the pain. [00:36:03] Karen: Yeah, absolutely. It's your body's way of somehow protecting you of some of that. Um, I, I, I'm trying to bring it into your. Because your body is smart. Right? Your brain, your body, like it knows, it, knows what you can handle when, that's why a lot of people right, that have been through serious trauma when they're young, don't remember it. [00:36:23] Poncho: Yeah. ' [00:36:23] Karen: cause their mind just says, you know what, you can't, you can't deal with it. We're not gonna remember it. We're just gonna forget it. [00:36:29] Poncho: Yeah. [00:36:30] Karen: You know, and it's, and it's those moments where. You're kind of grateful that your body takes over and just kind of, you know, you're running on automation rather than any kind of real thought. [00:36:40] Poncho: I, I remember, you know, I, I, I lost my, my mother and, and she, we lost her in, in the span of about six weeks. She went from, it was a rollercoaster ride from, uh, you know, getting sick to, you know, healing, to getting sick, and then one day gone. And I, I really. Didn't start to grieve and mourn, and I bet it was, I bet it was two months just coming to terms with what, you know, what had happened. And, and, and I agree with you. I think some way, somehow the mind was kind of protecting me, going, okay, you know what? You're not ready for this. [00:37:16] Karen: Yeah, [00:37:16] Poncho: you will be one day. Don't worry. We'll let you know. And man did it. I, I think I was in traffic. I was just looking at a billboard, I think for Mother's Day. Just the wa the water works, you know? And there it was. But out of that, you know, outta their grief, you, you, you need to grieve. [00:37:30] Karen: Yeah. [00:37:31] Poncho: You have to because that's how you start to heal. [00:37:33] Karen: Yep. [00:37:33] Poncho: You know? And, and once you start to heal, I think that's where you start thinking of, of the good memories. Yeah. You know, the good times. Yeah. Even, you know, like Denver, I mean, I could tell you you had a flash of thinking something positive and there was this smile across your face instantly. Yeah. [00:37:48] Karen: Yeah. Uh, the, so the 13th, the day that we Denver was this, he loved kisses he loved, and he, and he wasn't just a, he went like he did the whole like, like it was sweet. So thank goodness the, the kids are really good that before they leave, they always make sure they say goodbye. And so, um, that is a moment I'll never forget. 'cause that was my, I felt like that was almost my goodbye to him. My forever. Good luck, Tim was that kiss and then his beautiful smile after. So yeah, like he, um, you know, I think it's important to remember that when you're, when you're, um, grieving, tears are made up of water and salt and those two things we know to be very healing. And so, you know, when we're taught, 'cause I was taught like crying was something you did if you were bleeding or dying. And other than that, you don't cry. Like you don't cry. It's just, um, how my mom. [00:38:48] Poncho: And, and it, it just wasn't your mind. It was everybody. You know, you Yeah. You don't cry. You take those feelings and you, you bottle them up. Yeah. You don't talk about it. You don't deal with it. [00:38:55] Karen: That's right. [00:38:55] Poncho: It was one of the ones that was one of the worst things that society could have done for Right. For themselves. [00:39:00] Karen: Yeah. Exactly. [00:39:01] Poncho: You know? And then you mentioned, we have a new generation, and you're very excited to see how they're going to change and shape the world because you know what? They're in much more. They have a much greater understanding of what it means to be emotionally mature and to be in contact with their feelings. And it's okay to discuss it. And it's okay to cry. You need to cry. You need to purge. [00:39:22] Karen: Yep. [00:39:23] Poncho: Right. I mean, you absolutely. You, you, you purge your closet, right? Right. I mean, you, you get rid of the clothes sometimes. You, you purge your friends. Why wouldn't you want to do that with your feelings? [00:39:32] Karen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, when we talk about, you know, empty your house and anything, you don't go get in the next, in the first six months. Leave it. You don't need it. Right? Yeah. Well it's we, but we don't do it with ourselves and [00:39:43] Poncho: No, and we carry that around and it gets heavy and heavy and heavy. [00:39:46] Karen: That's how we were taught as kids though, right? Yeah. And especially when you're a certain age, um, that's how you are taught as kids. And that's why I say like, we don't sit there and be quiet, don't, you don't say anything. You don't talk. So even as an adult to come here and talk about the different things. Something I've had to teach myself. It's important, it's important to talk about your lived experience. Um, imagine where we would be if our indigenous elders didn't tell us about the stories of what they've gone through. You know, imagine where we would be, we would still be in that place where we thought we were doing okay and dealing with history and, and, [00:40:23] Poncho: and it turns out no, [00:40:25] Karen: no. Right? So, yeah. [00:40:29] Poncho: I want to, uh, I I I want to ask you, um, something that we ask all of our guests. Okay. So when it comes to recovery, when it comes to healing, and when it comes to community, um, how important is that to you that that healing and community go, go hand in hand? That you can't have one without the other? [00:40:53] Karen: Yeah. Oh my gosh. This last, um, this last year has really shown me how important that is and, you know, the women from the fire keepers when Denver passed, just. Their support, um, and their continued support is, it's not just a one and done. Right. We have to remember that. Um, loss. Again, like I say, that grief isn't linear and so, and they, they're still so supportive. We see them monthly and there's connection and conversation and we don't have to be afraid to say what we're thinking or feeling. They take it and they. I honor it. And, uh, same with my family, right? Same thing. People I work with. Uh, I think that it's really important that we talk about the things. So, like I said, we don't, and then we, um, [00:41:49] Poncho: and you talk about it and, and, and, and you're doing it. And, and because you're here today, sharing your story, sharing your thoughts and your feelings, right? Sharing your lived experience, your words are gonna benefit people. People that you know and, and, and people that you don't. [00:42:03] Karen: I hope so. Uh, you know, I, there's so many ways we could turn, turn, instead of talking about it, we can turn to, you know, alcohol we could turn to just depression or, but, you know, that doesn't honor. It doesn't honor, it doesn't honor our lives. It doesn't honor our souls. It doesn't honor our being. It doesn't honor the people we've lost, um, in any way, shape or form by doing that, right, it doesn't mean that you don't have those moments and, um, that you know, there's, uh, you don't have those moments. Well, you know what? Today I just need to sleep. I just really need to not go out. I just need to not talk to anybody today. [00:42:46] Poncho: Yeah. [00:42:46] Karen: Have those moments. Take those moments. Those are important too. [00:42:50] Poncho: You need to look after you first. [00:42:51] Karen: Yep. But connect. Connect, find an organization or find if you don't have family. That you can connect with. Um, look me up on Facebook. My name is Karen Worl. W-O-R-R-E-L-L. Message me. Let's connect, let's have coffee. Um, if you're, if you're here and you are in the hat or in Redcliffe area and you don't have anyone, 'cause you don't have that connection to community or you don't have family and you're broken right now, your soul is feeling like there's easier ways to get out of it. Like. Taking your own life or drinking or however getting lost in it. Message me. Let's go for coffee. Um, shoot. I'm happy to go for coffee. I just think that connecting with humans is so important. [00:43:40] Poncho: Incredibly important. [00:43:41] Karen: It's so important, [00:43:42] Poncho: especially after the last four or five years. [00:43:43] Karen: Yeah. Yes. Right. [00:43:45] Poncho: You know? [00:43:46] Karen: Absolutely. We got to a point where for a couple years we weren't connecting at all, and then. We were thrown back into, everything's open. [00:43:53] Poncho: And that really, I think that really messed with society's mind Yeah. As a, as a collective and as individuals as well. [00:44:00] Karen: Absolutely. [00:44:00] Poncho: You know, I mean the, the spike in, in, in mental health issues. Right. Especially after the whole COVID thing. Yeah. [00:44:05] Karen: Absolutely. [00:44:06] Poncho: You know, and, and people are still reeling from it, you know, we're still feeling the, the effects from it. [00:44:10] Karen: Absolutely. [00:44:10] Poncho: Um, Karen's gonna be, you're gonna be offering the, uh, the land acknowledgement at, at SAR Con and you're gonna be sitting the, uh, on, sitting on the indigenous women's panel and, um. Thank you for, for carrying and, and sharing the profound story of your grandson, Denver mm-hmm. Whose legacy will continue to, to live on. Yeah. And, um, so thank you to, to share your thoughts. Thank you. To talk healing. Um. Ceremony and, and culture and, um, you know, again, thank you for sharing some of what it means to be part of the, uh, the fire keeper Women's Society. [00:44:49] Karen: So important. They are such an important group. I really appreciate them so much. [00:44:54] Poncho: And can we get your name and website again if people want to reach out and, and connect with you? [00:44:58] Karen: Yeah, so it's Karen Worrell, W-O-R-R-E-L-L, and I'm on Facebook. [00:45:02] Poncho: Okay. [00:45:03] Karen: Um, even if you message Denver's destination on Facebook, if you're having some trouble or if you wanna take his picture with you on a trip, you're going somewhere in case you get lonely and you need someone there with you. His beautiful smile will keep you company, um, and fill your soul while you're there. So [00:45:18] Poncho: you have, I'm not to [00:45:19] Karen: hear from you. [00:45:19] Poncho: Have you have a real honest energy about you. [00:45:21] Karen: Thank you. I, I try. I I think sometimes, sometimes it's too honest. Sometimes [00:45:26] Poncho: it's, no, no, it's good. We need more. We need more people like you in our world. We do appreciate that. We do. So it, it was, this was, you know, it was, um. It was it comforting and a, and a very learning experience to, to share space with you today. [00:45:42] Karen: Thank you. I really appreciate [00:45:43] Poncho: that and I appreciate you taking the time. Karen, thank you. Thank you. [00:45:46] Karen: Thank you. [00:45:48] ANNCR: From Darkness to Life is an our collective journey podcast. These are the true stories of struggles and triumphs against addiction and mental health challenges. If these stories resonate with you and you or someone you love, need help and don't know where to turn, our collective journey is. Here for you. Please consider supporting Ocj by visiting our collective journey.ca and clicking donate. All proceeds go to supporting the health and wellness of people in our community. Hosted by members of our collective journey, produced by Rob Pate, engineered, edited, and directed by Dave Cruickshank From Darkness to Life is a plugged in media exclusive. Thank you for listening.