Miriam Allred (00:01.058)
Welcome to the Home Care Strategy Lab. I'm your host, Miriam Allred. It's great to be back with all of you. I hope you're having an exceptional week. today in the lab, I'm joined by Gabrielle Pumpian, who I'll be calling Gabi on today's episode. Hopefully all of you are familiar with her and her work. She's been kind of up and coming in the industry the last couple of years, and we've interviewed her on past shows, and it was time to have her on the Home Care Strategy Lab.

She has experience spanning from home care assistance, turned the key to cheer home care, to breakaway 365, and now she's up to something new and exciting, which we'll talk more about today. Gabi, thanks for joining me in the lab.

Gabrielle Pumpian (00:41.301)
Hi Miriam, thanks for having me.

Miriam Allred (00:43.796)
Let's start with your background. I just kind of rallied off like a few names and titles, but I want to hear more about your personal journey. Maybe share a couple of highlights like pre-home care and then really how you got, how you landed in home care.

Gabrielle Pumpian (00:59.051)
Sounds great. Well, thank you for having me. I'm honored to be here promoting the sales and business development side of this amazing industry. That's where I've been my career the last 17 years here in San Diego. And I've journeyed through being a junior with zero sales experience, pounding the pavement, really learning from the ground up all the way through starting a brand new home care agency in a very saturated impacted market, being the chief growth officer.

here. So it's been a journey. But I am tried and true to sales and business development and I'm excited to talk about that a little bit more today.

Miriam Allred (01:37.75)
Yeah, let's give us a little more juice on like your early days because today we're going to talk about like the role of the sales rep and you have been there, done that, seen a lot, experienced a lot. So tell us a little bit more about like your early days in sales. You said talked about, you said you were a junior, you know, and then you've grown from there, but what was the early days? What did it look like?

Gabrielle Pumpian (01:58.26)
Yes.

I have to think way back to 2007. I joined a already established home care team that was a part of a larger company that had home health and then eventually added hospice. So from the beginning, I was thrown into a role that was really collaborative. And my sales leader encouraged me to co-market with my home health partner out in the field, which was great because I didn't know what it was like to walk into a hospital and ask for the case manager.

know what a skilled nursing facility was. I had no idea what I was doing. So being able to go out early days, co-market, really see how someone who already has a relationship established with a key influencer and account that can refer business and how they build upon that, what their intention is. So I was just super observant. I also had a great sales leader at that time who wasn't local to me. She was in Orange County and I was down here in San

So I had a lot of autonomy which taught me how to kind of develop my own style, routine, processes. But then she would come down and provide support through ride along, meetings with the team, and we would always kind of celebrate our success even if it was teeny tiny and with the internal team. So she was a great example of really what a home care agency ecosystem looks like with all the different people. And when you're out there in the field and you're not spending a lot of time

with your team, having someone help you bridge that gap really helped me succeed because I'm nothing without my internal team and there we're nothing without our caregivers.

Miriam Allred (03:40.046)
And home care, were kind of, you were young when you started. Did you have personal home care experience or familial home care experience or this was all net new to you at the time?

Gabrielle Pumpian (03:43.051)
Yeah.

Gabrielle Pumpian (03:50.653)
It was so new. So I was working at the front desk of an inpatient rehab center in a local hospital where we would have inpatients, but then also outpatients would come in for their PT, their OT, and speech therapy. And so I was, I had a background in customer service working in high end restaurants in college and high school. And then when I moved to San Diego after college, I was encouraged by someone to go work in healthcare because I could apply customer service to this job at the front desk. So,

That was my initial understanding of health care was through that lens being in that setting and then seeing these representatives coming in and helping the case managers create discharge plans for them to go home and all the services that it takes to get someone home. Selling oxygen and selling equipment and home health care and all these different services that it took and that's how I started developing a relationship with these reps because I was the gatekeeper. I was the front desk person. I was the person they had to get past.

And so when I transitioned into a salesperson outside in the field, my first person that I would ever spend time trying to build a relationship with was the gatekeeper, whether it was in a facility, whether it was at a senior living community or in a doctor's office. I never looked past the gatekeeper. The first couple of visits were always about building that initial relationship because I had been in those shoes. yeah, home care was brand new. And then now I'm actually a sandwich generation caregiver where I have two aging parents that

that live in Northern California. So I'm at a distance and I'm raising a child and both my parents have chronic health issues and I'm fully thrust into the ideal client that I was trying to work with and find when I was out selling home care services in the field.

Miriam Allred (05:36.756)
Okay, love. Yes, I love all of this too, because every business is hiring these sales reps and oftentimes struggles too, because it's like, who is the person that is the right fit for this seat? And so I love to hear you kind of dial back like what you were and what you were doing and how those skills like translated from the gatekeeper to customer success to sales, because it's finding people like you like kind of the diamonds and the rough that are out there that make a really good fit for this role.

Tout yourself a little bit. You have like some major accolades. Like you're not just a, you know, like an average sales rep in San Diego. Like you grew and developed relationships that led you to again, like some accolades, like share a little bit more insight into that.

Gabrielle Pumpian (06:17.707)
you

It's not natural for me to do that, but I'm happy to because it's been a journey and I'm really grateful again for the mentorship that I've had along my way. think my success as a sales business development person in home care comes from the leadership that I received and the support I had from my fellow sales members. So I had transitioned from that original home care position into the director of admissions for a skilled nursing facility. So I kind of put myself in this new role where it was

was very insurance-based, helping patients discharge out of the hospital, and then realized that really home care was my passion, and so I left that went back into the home care space. And when I was hired by Home Care Assistance for the La Jolla location, La Jolla and Cardiff, back in 2018, 17?

That opened my eyes to this very high-end private pay, really concierge level, white glove care management model of home care that I hadn't experienced in the past. And so with that, I was struggled at first. I went from more of a serving Medicare patients that were coming from home health, skilled nursing, and hospice referral sources in hospitals, where maybe they don't stay on services long-term because they can only afford so much or they get referred in a little too late.

and they don't stay on service long enough before they need to move or maybe they pass away. And so I was used to this kind of turn and burn environment, which I think a lot of home care agencies experience. And it was challenging. was challenging to grow the revenue. It was challenging to keep caregivers happy. And so when I moved over to home care assistance and was introduced to kind of this different service style, I learned very quickly that there is a whole other world out there of clients who have the means, who want to age and

Gabrielle Pumpian (08:09.527)
place and that they have advocates and advisors and families that maybe can start that process sooner because they have the means or maybe they're wanting to put the resources because the client is absolutely adamant about never leaving their home. And so now the families really have to figure out these in-home solutions to age in place. so building that business, really working in that niche of more concierge level, was able to grow my annual revenue really by the million zero

year. I was there for almost seven years and my last year I was projected at least eight million in revenue and I left not even halfway through the year. So it I have this great idea and this proven process that I'm excited to share with more home care agencies to say

Let's diversify your referral sources. Let's look where there's people who have the means. And so you can build that foundation of business and your caregivers can have jobs for years and reduce this retention issue that we see so commonly.

Miriam Allred (09:15.38)
Okay, amazing. Two specific questions because you've lived and breathed the sales role and we talk a lot about this in home care sales, but also just like sales holistically. First one is, what do we call this role? In home care, you see marketing, you see sales, you see business development and you've already referenced a couple of the terms, which is fine. But if you had to like, you know, hang your hat on one title, what would it be?

Gabrielle Pumpian (09:43.659)
I mean, the challenge is the role interfaces with not only referral sources and kind of transactional business, but you also interface with families. So the last thing you want to be called is a sales rep, right? I know hospice liaisons don't like to be called hospice sales reps, right? Because it's like, those two just don't mix very well. And most of the people who are doing this work are not in it to be like crazy salespeople and numbers, numbers, numbers, right? We're here to help people.

So it is a challenging title, I will say that. And I've heard a lot of different things. I think when I try to define my title, I am a business developer, I'm a relationship builder, and I'm a connector. So I'm all of these things.

But at end of the day, I'm there to develop the business for my agency that translates into care for our clients. And so I like a term that kind of bridges that gap, whether it's a home care liaison or it's a home care business development specialist. I mean, the titles are tough.

I'm going to say. I don't like marketer though. I'll tell you that I personally don't like marketer. It's probably the most common term used for the role. Marketers are going out slang and brochures. And I think as long as you're slang and brochures, you're really not developing relationships. so come up with a title that defines you based on what your true value is to your referral partners. And to me, it's connection, it's relationships, and it's communication.

Miriam Allred (10:51.788)
Yeah, and it's all, it's all-

Miriam Allred (11:02.018)
Yeah.

Miriam Allred (11:18.018)
Developing a liaison. Yeah, that was great. And I love the hot takes and just defining this because you're right. I think we're overusing marketing and marketer in this role and that's got to go. And we've got to transition into this more like sophisticated title, which you just defined so eloquently. The other question I want to ask is what, and this probably evolved over time, but what motivated you? Like a lot of sales reps are motivated by money financially. You know, a lot of your income was probably commission-based.

Gabrielle Pumpian (11:42.985)
Thank

Miriam Allred (11:48.75)
At what points were you motivated by money and at what points were you motivated by service and by the care itself and by the impact you were making? And, then maybe like the overlap, like, is it 50 50 in that seat or was it 70 30 or did that change over time? Like just talk about like your motivation and what motivated you.

Gabrielle Pumpian (12:08.873)
I think I was motivated by winning. And it's not necessarily defined by what, how I win or how...

The company wins. It's just winning in general. And so if I could have a point throughout my day where I felt like I won that, or I walked out of that building and I won that conversation because we scheduled a follow-up, that is a win. I feel like my day, something good happened today. It wasn't a 24 seven referral, but it was a next step with a referral source that eventually will refer me a 24 seven referral. So I have to be patient and I have to count those wins. So I think it's winning. And when you're a field rep or a business developer

coming back into your internal team, into the office after being out for days or you haven't seen them for a while, you want to come in with that winning mentality. I can remember so much positive feedback I got from my old teams. They'd say, Gabi, when you come into the office, we love it. We love the energy you bring. You bring a smoothie sometimes. You just come in with a smile. You sit down. You ask how I'm doing. You share something positive that happened to you out there. And I think that is one of

our roles as the outside person representing the company is like we need to represent inside as well. Our internal team are just as important as our external customers and really creates that teamwork that is going to create growth and success for the company overall.

Miriam Allred (13:33.332)
Amazing. Okay, love that as well because winning takes so many different shapes. Like there is the financial gains, there are the service gains, there are the relationship gains. Like, I love that concept of just like tracking the wins and being focused on the wins because they look so different, but they're all like net positive, which is amazing. I ask you this partially too, because you know, the primary audience of the show is owners and operators and they are the ones hiring these sales reps, training these sales reps, rewarding and recognizing them.

I want you to share from your personal experience being in the sales rep seat, what were some of the misconceptions or misunderstandings from the owners to you as a sales rep? What were the things that you were doing that went unrecognized or misunderstood? Because I think a lot of that is happening. So I want to hear that from your perspective.

Gabrielle Pumpian (14:25.579)
Okay, and.

I'm not here to harp on any past people, but it's a great question because I think we all feel these feelings, right? And I had a great opportunity when I was working with Aaron Marcum at Breakaway 365 to work directly with about eight or nine companies across the country. And so I got to have owners' perspectives in these coaching sessions real and raw. And I'm still sitting in this. I've been a business developer for 15 plus years. And so I am.

I love this question. So there's a few things. One is when often when we hire a business developer, you think that they're going to turn on right away because they're out in the field, they're energized, they're excited. But the reality is, is there's quite a long ramp period, right? They're building relationships. So you think about yourself, like, are you just going to give someone blind trust with some of their most important clients without really knowing them or having them prove that they're who they say they are and they do what they say.

they're going to do. And so it takes time. And I would say on average, it probably takes 12 to 18 months for a business developer to really turn on and have that steady stream of leads and that steady cadence of visits and intentional relationship building sales calls to see big ROI on hiring a full-time business developer.

Miriam Allred (15:50.158)
Yeah, that's great. And just a good reminder for people, you said 12 to 18 months. This isn't overnight. This isn't even in six months. This is 12 to 18 months to see them hitting their stride.

Gabrielle Pumpian (15:56.415)
You can't. You can't.

And it's, yeah, and then one of the other things I think that goes right next to that is sometimes they don't then the

The leader needs to ensure that once that referral comes in after a year of that beauty person not giving up and building trust, the momentum needs to now like increase, right? And the leader has to get, the owner has to get behind the entire team to say, here we are, we got an opportunity, Gabi's been out there at this account every month for 12 months and we finally got a referral, let's go team. Like how are we going to make this the best experience this customer is going to have and how are we going to communicate that?

back to Gabi to ensure that she can relay that information to the referral source. The ball gets dropped. Oftentimes, the referral comes in, someone takes the intake, and the business developer has no clue, right? It's not documented or there's no follow-up process. So keeping the business developer in the loop and in the process, and they also have to hold themselves accountable to following up with the internal team and understanding what's going on. But the leader has to understand that once you get that momentum, we got

to build on it because we can't miss out on that opportunity.

Miriam Allred (17:15.0)
The word that comes to mind is like integration, like the owner to the business development rep to then the clinical team and being a unit because like you said, the ball can get dropped at all these different touch points, but you are kind of that connector. And so the owner needs to be on board with that and help with that integration. This is probably a loaded question, but what does the business development reps part look like in that like continuation? Like you said, there's the initial call, there's kind of that

Like there's that process that picks up, but how do you stay connected through that process?

Gabrielle Pumpian (17:50.911)
Well, each team works differently, but there should be some kind of communication thread. So let's say I'm out in the field and a call comes into the office and it's a new lead. Whoever takes that call has a kind of a script and a process. they know it's from a referral source, they know it's something that could start right away, they're going to transfer it to my cell phone out in the field. They do a warm transfer. Hey, Gabi, it's so-and-so from the office. I have this lead on the phone. They'd like you to do an intake and cut. I'm dropping. I'm pulling over.

dropping everything I can to take that call, right? But there's a process and an expectation that I have set for that communication. So that is one example.

Other ways to get involved is really just having a weekly cadence to meet about the pipeline, to talk about the business and the health of the business. And I've talked about this in the past, but without a pipeline meeting, the business development rep is going to get surprised when their numbers go down, when the weekly hours go down, or when someone's all of sudden in hospital and nobody told them and they want to go into that hospital for a visit. Well, if there's no communication set up between you and your internal team, you're going to get disappointed and frustrated.

all the time. So set something up every week, same time, same day, mandatory. We go through the leads, we go through the assessments, we go through who signed on, who didn't sign on and why and what the next step is because we don't want to leave them hanging. And then we go into who's coming off service and why, who is in the hospital, and where do we kind of need to make up the difference. And so it's a strategic, what I call the pipeline meeting and the business developer runs that meeting for the team.

And you bring in the people who need to be there who contribute to understanding the health of the business. And that could look differently. Usually for us it was the care managers, it was a scheduling manager for part of the meeting, and then the recruiter for part of the meeting. So very streamlined, very intentional, no one's surprised. know, clear communication.

Miriam Allred (19:53.046)
And back to the collaboration, is the owner involved in that meeting or is the owner in that meeting maybe once a month or where does kind of the owner operator fit in that process?

Gabrielle Pumpian (20:02.429)
Yeah, I mean, as we know, every business is a different size and the owner has their own involvement. I think if the owner is involved in growing the business, which many owners are, right, if they're out there even doing their own business development efforts, they should be a part of that meeting. If an owner has capacity to do their own relationship building, they should and they should showcase to the team what their expectations are as far as communication with those relationships. Doesn't mean the owner needs to have 50 accounts that they're out.

going to, but they could have five and those five could be very high end, very important. It could be the president of the Alzheimer's Foundation. It could be, you know, a board member for the local hospital. It doesn't need to be necessarily a social worker in a skilled nursing facility, but I believe the owner, if they want to know the value of their team, of their, you know, business development team, they should be present for those meetings or at least the managing director of the office.

Miriam Allred (20:57.792)
Okay. This is great weekly pipeline meeting. If you're not doing it, this is the place to start just to like you're saying, just smooth that communication, make sure everybody's on the same page and make sure there's no surprises that come up because home care is so fluid. Things are changing on a dime. Hours are up and down. People are off boarding. Like it's just so fluid. And so that has, that is a must. And I like, yeah, jump in.

Gabrielle Pumpian (21:18.987)
We had one more point to that because that is where you see opportunities for growth. And I think this is a huge missed opportunity for many companies and maybe for owners that don't really know how to see those gaps and opportunity for growth. So one of the ways that I think is not talked about enough and not measured enough is referrals out.

We put a metric in place where we had a goal where our goal was two referrals a week that we would be referring our clients some other resource or service that we couldn't provide that they needed. And it would be strategic. Excuse me, it would be from referral sources that I had already vetted, that we had relationships with, that it was already reciprocal.

But tracking that to make sure that you are also giving to your community to better help your clients age in place. And then your caregivers are identifying that for you. And you can say, hey, geriatric care manager, I just wanted to give you a quick update. Our caregiver reported a little skin breakdown on the buttocks. I know that you know her doctor. Could you please make an appointment or whatever the thing? But we're advocating. And it's not the staffing manager who's making that call. Maybe it's your care manager if you have it. But if not, push.

over to the business developer because that's a reason, that's a touch call. That's an intentional call to build a relationship with your geriatric care manager that can come from the salesperson, from the business development person.

Miriam Allred (22:35.01)
Mm-hmm.

Miriam Allred (22:43.362)
I'm glad you added that in because we don't talk enough about this in home care. It's all about give us, know, give us these referrals, getting these referrals, obtaining these referrals. We don't talk enough about referring out, but like you just said, it's another touch point. It's trust building, it's relationship building, it's making sure we're reciprocal. We're not just asking, but we're giving. And so it sounds like you said two a week, which sounds feasible, right?

Gabrielle Pumpian (23:05.675)
Yeah, totally and that could be...

could be anything. Really, it could be a placement referral. It could be a private chef. It could be anybody. It could be a housekeeper, you know, because your caregiver's reporting half of their day is spent cleaning. Well, in California, that's not allowed. It's only 20 % of your time could be dedicated to housekeeping. And so we need to make sure we're bringing in a resource. And sure, maybe people don't think that a house cleaning service is going to refer you in, but I'll tell you in like pockets like La Jolla or Rancho Santa Fe,

where those housekeepers and the staff at the homes really have the pulse on the client, the reality. And they can tell the daughter, hey, I noticed this and this. you know, we get some extra help in or whomever. There's sometimes a house manager that can be a referral. So you just never know. And I think that, I think you're right. I think when we talk about KPIs, which is another topic, what are you measuring when it comes to how you're developing your partnerships?

not just your revenue, not just your caregiver retention numbers. Honestly, you're not gonna have caregivers if you don't have clients and long-term clients, right? So I am very passionate about the front side, the client-facing side of this industry because I think business development and sales gets really overlooked but gets the blame, the first people to go.

Miriam Allred (24:21.27)
Exactly.

Miriam Allred (24:33.038)
And we're changing that right now in this conversation. This is a perfect transition. You're already name dropping all of these different referral sources. And so let's just get into the topic in more depth. And I'm going to kind of preface this. We want to talk about the referral sources that you drove a lot of success with that are less common. They're not the hospitals, the SNFs you know, the assisted livings. Like you actually drove a lot of your success through less common referral sources.

But I think a lot of people that are about to listen to this are like, wait, tell us a little bit about the healthcare related referral sources. So I want to spend 10 or 15 minutes on the healthcare related referral sources that you focused on and what your approach with and kind of differentiators were there. But then we're going to spend the bulk of the time talking about these geriatric care managers, these kind of less common private pay referral sources that were wildly successful for you and why you targeted them and what you did with them and what worked long-term.

With that being said, just spend a couple of minutes talking about your top healthcare related referrers, who they were and why they were important to building probably kind of like your foundation so that you could go out and approach these different resources, different referral sources.

Gabrielle Pumpian (25:49.226)
Yeah.

I'm happy to. So like I mentioned, I've worked alongside home health and hospice partners. And so I would say the number one was a home health partner or two or three. So I probably had three and each one would be a different value for me or for the clients that I was going after. But the most, the thing we always had in common were going to accounts that had qualified private pay clients for home care. So I wouldn't just go to any skilled nurse.

nursing facility or hospital or doctor's office with the home health rep. I would be very strategic. We would co-market at neurology offices. We would co-market at concierge medicine offices. They would take me to the, you know, the special unit in the hospital that took care of the donor clients and patients. It would be very strategic with where I was going to spend my time because again, I was going after a very niche type of client and they're hard to find. And so going in with

already a trusted referral source like a home health partner that built that relationship with the internal office team, you at the account and then would get referrals and refer me in. And so it was twofold. It was one, getting in front of people and then getting the opportunity for a client lead and then hopefully a new client. And then now I get an opportunity to go back to the office and say, hey, I met you last month. We provided lunch. It was so great to meet your team. Just want to let you know that we're going to be working with Mr. Jones alongside, you know, XYZ.

home health who referred us in because the nurse identified that the patient needed blah blah blah blah blah that home care can provide. Great, so now I'm building a relationship through a co-marketing effort with a client that is qualified and now has Parkinson's disease and is going to need a long-term caregiver for the next five to ten years. So home health is number one.

Miriam Allred (27:40.11)
Let me ask a clarifying question. The home health company was baked into your company or this was like an external company?

Gabrielle Pumpian (27:47.371)
you

I would say majority of my private pay growing with home care assistance and the key was external. So we would go in as kind of like a package for the referral source. We would say, we're here together, we work together, we identify needs together to best serve your patients and families. And the referral sources love that. Because now they're like, great, I only have one person I need to call. I'm either going to call Gabi, I'm going to call Joey. They're going to take care of it. So it makes it really easy for the referral source to pick the phone.

to make the call. And that's the goal. I want it to be easy for my referral sources, right? Just want them to text me or call me, explain the situation, I take it from there. So as far as healthcare related, I would say home health. Hospice partners, very similar approach, very similar strategy. End of life, you know, really knowing what your agency's comfortable with, what they're skilled with when it comes to end of life care. It's not something you can just throw around and say that you offer if you really don't have hospice experience and trained caregiver.

So definitely making sure that you align with the right hospice partnerships. And then with hospice, one of the things that I leveraged was going in and meeting the clinical team. And so part of building that relationship and my efforts was going and providing a five minute education pitch to the clinical team at their stand-up, at their IDG meeting with the physician, the social workers and nurses, and everyone around the room who has the opportunity to make a referral or at least call the liaison.

on that then knows me to make the referral. So that's a great way is you're able now to go out in the field with these two types of providers, but then also go into their internal teams and build relationships there. And then skilled nursing facilities, mean, many, many home care companies are comfortable with that. I would say something that kind of set my approach apart was I really wanted to get the referral as early as possible because I would share with them that our goal is to come in and

Gabrielle Pumpian (29:48.797)
and do caregiver training with your rehab team prior to the patient going home. And then also for free, we will go out and do an in-home assessment. And the patient's not even there, but we're gonna go in and see the home. We're gonna give you social worker discharge planner, a really clear picture of what the home is like and make sure that it's a safe environment or maybe you make referrals for now some equipment that you didn't know they needed. So we're bringing value because we're essentially making the discharge safer and reducing

the liability for the patient coming back and being readmitted, which we know hospitals and skilled nursing facilities absolutely want to avoid.

Miriam Allred (30:26.52)
This is so good. You're dropping in all these tactics of like exactly what you did, which is so valuable. It's like, what did you do to get into that hospice and to get into that SNF and how did you approach it differently than, you know, the 50 other home care companies that were approaching them, which is so good. Go ahead.

Gabrielle Pumpian (30:42.569)
Yeah, so just to add to that, one more tactic is if I got a referral from a skilled nursing facility social worker, I wouldn't say like, okay, great, we'll see them when they get home or we'll do the assessment when they get home. I would say, when can I come in and when can you introduce me to the patient and the family? When can we kind of have this collaborative meeting to all get on the same page? And again, you're slowing the process down, you're making it more thorough, and now you're giving your team an opportunity to staff and prepare that caregiver

for that skilled nursing patient because most patients coming out of SNFs are way higher acuity, they're sicker, they're weaker, they're way more volatile and it needs to be planned out as properly as possible, right? And that requires training because we don't want our caregivers to get hurt. We don't want them to be ill-prepared. So I would often as much as I could slow it down and collaborate with the skilled nursing facility team, the director of rehab, the director of nursing and the discharge planning teams to ensure a full wraparound.

experience. Connect with the home health that they're recommending. we're coming home with this patient too. What's your communication style? What do you expect from our caregivers? Let me make sure those protocols are set up. That was all me. That was my job. You know if I had a day like that where I'm coordinating discharge and I only got to see one or two people out in the field face-to-face, it was a good day. It was a win because we're helping someone get home.

Miriam Allred (32:00.974)
The thing that I'm hearing too is it's a very different approach and process with each of these referral sources. And that's probably another just pitfall for these business development reps is I build a process and I apply it to each of these referral partners. But you said at the beginning, what they value, what their outcomes are is different and you need to tailor your approach to their outcomes.

That's a lot of pressure. That's a lot of work. You just said it yourself. Like that is a lot of work day in and day out, but that should be the end goal is how do we create and build a process that's specific and tailored to that referral source and ties us directly to their outcomes and to what they value.

Gabrielle Pumpian (32:46.571)
And this is exactly why it takes 12 months to 18 months because

The business developer is doing their due diligence and having intentional meetings and asking all of these types of questions as they go month over month out into those accounts. so having questions prepared that allow the person to get an open-ended answer and just, what are your pain points? What are the biggest challenges? What is working well with the home care providers you're referring to today? What are some gaps that you see?

Let them tell you and just gather intelligence and document it and then your next visit you have an intention to come back and address one of the things that they told you. But if you don't ask, you just drop your brochure off.

Miriam Allred (33:32.478)
You look like one in a million. You don't look like one in a million. You look like everybody else. The other one that you mentioned that I just thought was interesting that I want to draw a little bit of attention to is this concierge medicine practice. That's kind of transitioning us into maybe the less common, but it's still healthcare related. Who is that and why was that valuable to you?

Gabrielle Pumpian (33:35.637)
Yeah.

Gabrielle Pumpian (33:53.355)
Yeah, so concierge medicine patients are all private pay. So they're paying an annual membership fee. It's usually between $10,000 and $50,000 a year just to have access to the doctor and the team. And then they're paying out of pocket for all the appointments, all the tests, all the labs, all the x-rays. But they're getting the best referrals to the best specialists. They're getting concierge treatment in facilities. They're having house calls.

But the biggest, you for me is I used to go to all kinds of physician offices, know, cardiologists and internal med and kind of these big, big practices. Well, most of these concierge med practices, they have a cap on how many families they serve. And many of them serve families, one told me this term, so I'm going to say it, from cradle to grave, right? So they're helping generations of families. They're helping the pediatric patients all the way up through the geriatric.

patients. And so what a great place to fish where the fish are. What a great opportunity to serve these families that are your ideal customer already. And then they often have a nursing coordinator. You can go in and you know provide those lunches and in services. And we've got some I've gotten some amazing kind of VIP clients from these referral sources that were such a pleasure to work with.

Miriam Allred (35:22.112)
A couple of a couple of follow up questions that are a little bit more broad stroke. You were in a highly saturated market, I think is what people would refer to you as. And so a lot of people listening to this again, it's a mixed bag. It's startups all the way up to 100 million plus. But are these health care referrers? Are they tapped out? Like, are people missing out on these opportunities because they're literally tapped out? Like, I just want to hear that from your perspective. Like, do you think

Gabrielle Pumpian (35:29.138)
Miriam Allred (35:50.136)
there is room to get in your foot in the door in these places or are there some markets where it's just tap?

Gabrielle Pumpian (35:57.163)
I mean, I think that's a fear or something that maybe holds business developers back is they say, do you work with an agency? Oh yeah, I already work with three companies. I don't need another one.

Well, the art of asking open-ended questions is learning from that answer, right? And so what we also know is that people move around a lot and this industry is not stable for anyone. And I don't see anywhere near in our future where it will become more stable, then the needs are going to grow. So if you are not bringing value or intention to the burnt out or the overwhelmed social workers and nurses at these facilities,

Don't go.

Like don't waste their time. And I just, that may be harsh to hear, but why would you, you know, what, what are you going to get? You're going to get someone that's probably just me like, can you just bring me lunch? Can you just bring my team lunch? You know, and sure, I'll bring you lunch, but can we work on a client, a client together first? Happy to do that, but can we, know, can we work together first? But I think that's a probably a common response. Yeah. So, you know, host this for my team or host that. but.

That's not, for me, the right value. The right value is how can we better your patient's outcomes? How can we help take something off of your plate? What would be the easiest way to do that? So, yeah, I think you have to be incredibly intentional with people's time.

Miriam Allred (37:24.942)
So my follow-up question to that is, it's still, and you're saying this, it's still worth the effort. there is room, like do all home care businesses have to have a base of these healthcare referral partners or do they not? Like, did you have a base that was coming out of this and or have you worked with businesses that don't have healthcare referral partners?

that can have a strong foundation like is it's not all or nothing but like do you have to have some of this to be successful?

Gabrielle Pumpian (38:01.171)
I think, it depends on your business mix. I know a lot of your audience, have Medicaid contracts and VA contracts. so their ideal customer is going to be coming out of a health care account. A lot of times, early planning is not involved in typical Medicaid patients, or they don't have the means to do that. so I think you do need to tap into the industry at all facets.

important to have the relationships in the right places so that you can make referrals out. Again, like I said, I can't tell you how many of my trusted advisor referral sources like an attorney or a financial planner will call me asking, hey, what's the best memory care? Actually, I a call from my own financial planner this weekend. I need to move my mom into memory care in this part of town. Do you recommend any of these buildings? So just because they don't give me a lot of business, it's still to make myself more well-rounded, to serve my clients, to make connections.

connections out there to know the industry as a whole you do need to be connected in some of the right places. But I think I've said this in a previous podcast. I used to work with maybe five SNFs five to seven SNFs in San Diego. Over my last eight years in home care sales, there's over 500 if not more in San Diego. So I'm only focusing on the ones that I would put my own loved one in so I can authentically make that referral to a family.

Miriam Allred (39:22.658)
Mm-hmm.

Miriam Allred (39:30.286)
Yeah, that's a really good answer of you saying like becoming that connector. You can be passing business back even if they're not passing business to you, but it comes full circle in different moments where it all works out for both of you. On that kind of tactical note, you mentioned they put up these walls. They say, bring my team lunch. They say, I already have three home care businesses that I'm working with. Like in a nutshell, what

What was your secret sauce in those hard moments? Was your arsenal just opening the, asking these open-ended questions or were there other kind of quick things that you would do to break down those barriers?

Gabrielle Pumpian (40:11.305)
I would say that when... Hold on. Can we pause once? What's up, Audie?

Miriam Allred (40:17.464)
Sure. Yep.

Miriam Allred (40:22.582)
One of the things on the kind of tactical note, you were already sharing some of the things that you would do to break down those barriers when they would say, we're already working with three home care businesses or just bring my team lunch. Like they're quick to write you off. But I want to ask when you were in that C, what were some of the things like in your arsenal that you would pull out when they would put up those barriers?

Gabrielle Pumpian (40:35.594)
Yes.

Gabrielle Pumpian (40:43.285)
Got it.

Love this question. I think a lot of times business developers think that the social worker in the skilled nursing facility is the only person that they should be focused on because you know that they're the ones making the referral for the patient to go home. They're in charge of that. I think that one of the best ways to get around it is you need to be well rounded within the community itself. And so like I mentioned earlier I intentionally went and made effort to get to know the director of rehab. I would actually host many educational sessions or like a

with just the rehab team, just the PTOT and speech therapist. I would do the same. I had a great relationship with the director of admissions and marketing because she was the one out in the field going into hospitals so we could co-market, but she also would call me and say, hey, we're gonna need a 24-7 sitter because we have a high needs patient coming in and can you guys staff? And so we would always say yes and we would show up. So.

the referr isn't always just one person. And so I think if you know the account is qualified and you know that your ideal customer fits the demographic of the majority of the patients in that community or building, then it behooves you to really spread yourself out and develop relationships with each department, including the gatekeeper. I'll tell you, this one skilled nursing facility in La Jolla that I've worked with for eight years, eight, nine years, they're always right down the street.

from the office, so I got to know them regularly. The gatekeeper, Dino, he was at the front desk for probably four years, and then he got promoted into a new job, and then he got promoted again into another role, and now he's the director of staff, so he runs all the staff. And so you just never know. You've gotta spread yourself out a little bit. Same in any account. There's gonna be more than one person that has the opportunity to...

Gabrielle Pumpian (42:36.851)
refer you clients, it could start with their own personal referrals, it could be someone that doesn't even live in the community that they're in and you just never know. So don't put all your eggs in one basket and spread yourself out a little bit.

Miriam Allred (42:49.358)
And I love this term that you keep using, is like co-marketing with your partners. Like I think that is also a huge differentiator for you that you're explaining here is you go out and approach a referral source with one of your referral sources. Like you are a unit and you are building those relationships to go out and create and foster more relationships. I think that is like an underutilized lever likely in home care right now is co-marketing.

Gabrielle Pumpian (42:55.143)
Yes.

Miriam Allred (43:17.558)
really tightly as if you are a unit, as if you are on the same team, essentially you are, but as if you are working representing the same company to go out and approach new referral sources with your existing ones. Like think that is just so powerful.

Gabrielle Pumpian (43:30.163)
Yeah, you can kind of picture it as like having a power partner. What is this? Quivers and arrows? I keep hearing, I think it's a corporate term, pull out the quiver or something out of your arsenal. Yeah, I think having your solid power partners is so important to really cementing yourself in your market and having these relationships that then can develop and blossom and

Miriam Allred (43:38.593)
Yeah.

Out of your arsenal, out of your clever area.

Gabrielle Pumpian (43:58.047)
bloom outward right from the beginnings of those relationships. So yes, it should be a home health rep, should be a hospice rep, a skilled nursing admissions person, memory care communities, those as far as the facility type settings or the living settings. And then having...

having estate planning attorneys and having financial advisors, they all like to network too. So I know we can kind of touch on this down the line, but where can you go out and get yourself in front of more people with someone else? Because warm introductions are key. I can't emphasize how powerful warm introductions are. And so it takes being willing to ask for the warm introduction and then identifying when there's an opportunity. Yeah.

Miriam Allred (44:43.222)
Yes, yes. Let's transition to the non-healthcare related referral sources because again, this is part of where you just thrived is going out and finding these less common referral sources. So I think there's three or four that you want to talk about. Let's start with the geriatric care managers. think a lot of people are familiar with that role, but why was that particularly beneficial to you?

Gabrielle Pumpian (45:08.991)
So when I joined Home Care Assistance, I was opened up to this world of geriatric care managers. And I really kudos the organization and my former leader, Ashley Marrone, to help educate me to get comfortable and get out there in front of these folks. And one of the best ways is to learn about what they do and realize that it is probably one of the most powerful relationships you can have in home care.

when you have these folks in your area. I know there's a lot of rural areas across the country, but I have a feeling this role is going to become more and more needed and created by people who want to help older adults, you know, with their aging needs. So GCMs are the best for home care companies because they're working with your ideal customer.

already. Their services are all private pay. Their job is to advocate and help manage the care. So they're the ones often bringing the home care referral and the home care agency in and then keeping them there and then addressing issues as you go. And so developing relationships and then processes for the internal team around the specific geriatric care manager partner was something that I learned to be very effective in getting long

Long-term clients that were going to build very high revenue. I think the average revenue from a GCM in a year was probably close to 150 to 200,000 for one patient one client. So they're they're big they're big clients typically And the other great thing about GCM is again What a great opportunity to refer your clients to someone like them So what they do one of the things that they do that home care companies at least in California don't do is manage medication. It's often such a

challenge and a short term need to fix for so many issues that the patient's having, the caregivers, can't touch the medication. So bringing in a GCM, initiating that relationship by saying they can come and help manage the medication. They can then go with you to your doctor's appointments and advocate and take notes and then report back to your family, talk to all your providers at once and kind of quarterback because we know people have many, providers at once.

Gabrielle Pumpian (47:21.001)
They often don't communicate with one another. So it's the geriatric care manager's role to be that conduit of information and ensure that the patient is, know, wishes are being addressed. Their quality of life is being addressed, which oftentimes providers, you know, that's not the first thing they're just trying to treat. So there's a lot of really great ways to work together with a GCM. We would have them, one of our partners come in,

on a monthly basis and we would pay for their time, $200 an hour, $300 an hour, and I would have them come and sit with my own care management team, the internal team, and we would all talk about a challenging client that we had and what to do. And so they could provide information and strategy, it could be a possible referral. Obviously HIPAA and all that was very compliant, so there was an issue there. But again, it was like, why not leverage these professionals to help us do a better job?

helping our clients and our caregivers. So I'm a big fan of GCM's also known as aging life care managers. They are they have local chapters throughout the country that you can get involved in. I was a part of the educational steering committee here in San Diego for many, many years. It was a monthly meeting. Got to sit around a table with five or six GCM's got to help plan the national conference that was hosted here.

Just got access to these people in ways that I had no clue was possible by just putting myself in the arena.

Miriam Allred (48:53.122)
Yeah, I'm glad you just mentioned that aging life care association and you said it at the start. Education is so important because in home care, care management is a little bit gray. know, home care agencies sometimes touch like a little bit of care management might be doing too much where they should be billing for it. In your case, you were partnering with these geriatric care managers. Some of their home care businesses have care managers on staff and bill both. So

Gabrielle Pumpian (49:03.979)
communication.

Miriam Allred (49:18.99)
I think the best place to start is just like educating yourself on what is home care and what is care management and establishing where everybody fits in the care that's actually being provided. But I think you're right. If you are a home care company and you don't offer care management as a service, then you absolutely need to get connected with these GCMs, build these relationships, get inside of those meetings because they are optimal partners for home care businesses.

Gabrielle Pumpian (49:45.031)
They really are and one of the great things that through that educational steering committee I got so comfortable with a couple of them when they called me to have a to refer a client they would say can you come do the assessment with me I want us to go together.

And that was just such a great opportunity to really learn even more about what they do because now we get to essentially do the close, the sale, you know, business terms together to wrap our arms better around this family and this client situation. And it proved to create very high value lifetime revenue generating clients more than probably any other referral source I've experienced. Yeah.

Miriam Allred (50:25.678)
How many GCMs would you say you were working with kind of at your max?

Gabrielle Pumpian (50:32.437)
Probably four and they all offered something different and so when I wanted to refer out to them

I would typically understand what the need was. There is one firm here that is very nursing focused. All the care managers are nurses. They don't necessarily do the bedside nursing, but they take more complex, high acuity clients. And so they are always going to need caregiving support, right? Great. We have another firm that's all social worker, mostly social worker based, and they have a sliding scale payment plan and they have these different activities and different connections that just depending on the client.

they could be a better fit. There is one that is owned by a former doctor of physical therapy. she's very, she hires her team to be very rehab and therapy focused. Not that they're providing the therapy, but they're coming with that perspective for a patient who has, or a client who has Parkinson's disease or mobility issues. So getting to know each, you know, it's just like in home care, you have to have a specialty. You have to have a unique value proposition. And that is going to set you apart more than any

anything today, right? And it's your story and it's your why. And so when you partner with a GCM, they need to know that too, so that they can appropriately refer you. mean, if a GCM had a lower income client that couldn't afford our rate because we were at the highest level of the spectrum in San Diego, she's not going to refer that to me. It's not because she doesn't like me or we don't have a good relationship.

But she's very clear on who we want to work with. And that's the two way. And I developed that relationship and nurtured it outside of the ALCA opportunities by just having one-on-one opportunities. And then that built them calling me and saying, let's go do this assessment. I'd like to introduce you to my client personally. And I mean, what better honor than that, someone who's worked on this relationship for a long time.

Miriam Allred (52:28.52)
Yeah, so, so, so good. Let's talk about two other non-health care related refers that you were successful with. And you've kind of mentioned these a few different times. One of those being wealth advisors, you people that are helping with that end of life, wealth planning. How did you find those people and why did they turn out to be a good fit for you as well?

Gabrielle Pumpian (52:50.035)
Yeah, again, they're working with clients to plan for retirement, to protect their assets and their estates. so again,

those are the clients that we want to work with. And it's not going to a banker necessarily, but a wealth advisor is often a more comprehensive financial professional that their clients typically have a higher net worth. Usually there's a minimum, either it's a million dollars or $5 million all the way up to ridiculous buku bucks. And so,

they making the referral for them, that money issue, that financial issue is not going to be the hesitation, which I think is probably 90 % of the hesitation why home care liaisons don't get referrals from SNFs is because they say, my patients can't afford you private pay. Do you have a contract?

You know, I got that all the time. So that's why I stopped going. So I shifted my focus to wealth advisors are working with families. They are, um, they have that trust bill and they're looking out for the client's legacy, which often looks like staying in the home long-term, bringing thing, bringing everything in and, and really ensuring that the client's privacy dignity is staying intact and that their wishes are being met. Um, a lot of times the wealth advisor client will also have a concierge medicine doctor.

Great, well now I have two touch points on one referral that I get to work. And then they probably have an estate planning attorney who's in charge of the trust possibly. That trust is what pays our bills. So, know, wealth advisor, could you please connect me with the estate planning attorney so I can ensure the document is signed for the bills or whatever it is. Oftentimes the wealth advisor is also the one paying the bills depending on the situation. So.

Gabrielle Pumpian (54:34.089)
It's very important to start getting out into the world, into this financial world and then the legal world. And I think more than ever with the amount of people who are retiring and aging who don't have family, really getting into this trusted advisor network is going to be key to helping people who have the means to get care long-term in the home and stay at home long-term. Yeah.

Miriam Allred (55:01.39)
Yeah, so money is not the issue with these people. What are the most common concerns you would hear from these wealth advisors or what were the concerns that you were breaking down or was it the education piece? Do these people know a lot about home care or you're coming in there and you're like, let me explain to you what we do.

Gabrielle Pumpian (55:05.599)
No.

Gabrielle Pumpian (55:14.123)
Yeah, I'll never forget. This was such a cool experience. I think I may have cold called a firm and it's an international firm branch here in La Jolla and I called them. I got an appointment somehow. I walk into the appointment and there's three wealth advisors, all men, probably 50 plus.

and there's an ocean view and I'm at this big oak table and I kind of feel out of my element a little bit and they bought lunch. I didn't bring lunch. I was like, they're rolling out this red carpet. And so I, you know, had some, things I had prepared mostly just to ask them questions. The conversation quickly turned into the most kind of for me, basic understanding of what insurance covers.

Miriam Allred (55:52.462)
you

Gabrielle Pumpian (56:07.595)
Medicare, private, long-term care insurance, and what it doesn't. And we probably spent 45 minutes and the men's, their jaws, like, they had to keep picking their jaws up, knowing what it costs to have 24-hour care for a month, which in San Diego, it's about 30 to $35,000. They had no clue. They were very uneducated when it comes to what I'm very educated and knowledgeable about. So I positioned myself as I'm your go-to elder care, healthcare expert. You call me when.

one of your clients has a significant change of condition or receives a diagnosis like dementia. You call me when one of your clients goes to the hospital and wants to avoid the skilled nursing facility and needs to kind of hospital to home care. You call me. I gave them a few examples of when to call me.

And then not, you know, maybe a few months later I get an email. Mrs. So-and-so is in the hospital. She's my favorite client. She's 95, a former physician, lives in Coronado. I'm on it. Great. He's like, I don't know what she needs, but she's there. Here's the daughter's number. And it was a two month process to get her home because she kept having reinfections, but we got her home, 24-7 care.

amazing woman was like the first female OB doctor on Coronado. So just such an opportunity, right? And it turned into a great case and it took a long time, but I will always remember that client probably for the rest of my life.

Miriam Allred (57:33.742)
And where that all started, what a great visual of you going into that office and feeling out of your depth. And then here, here you are the expert on the things that they don't know enough about and what a perfect relationship and just that trust was built from day one. Like Gabi knows her stuff, not just with private pay, but you could also share the numbers on Medicaid and VA and, insurance coverage. Like you were the expert on all those topics. And then they see you as that trusted advisor.

Gabrielle Pumpian (57:40.299)
I was gonna get school.

Miriam Allred (58:01.102)
And then they're passing an amazing referral to you. Like that is just incredible. It's magic and unforgettable. I can only imagine. Let's talk about attorneys. Attorneys is another huge opportunity that's maybe some are missing the boat on. What's your experience working with them? What were the conversations like? What are their pain points?

Gabrielle Pumpian (58:04.497)
Yeah, was magic.

Gabrielle Pumpian (58:22.611)
Yeah, so attorneys.

You know, similar in some senses, but often are a bit deeper, I think, when it comes to knowing the challenges of the family. know, wealth advisors, it's a lot about money and assets and stuff. But attorneys, can get messy, right? It can get messy fast when someone passes away and family comes out. You know, there's a lot of dynamics. And so I would focus my efforts on meeting and building relationships with estate planning attorneys because they're the ones whose job it is to create

create the protections and also the wishes and enshrine them, you know, in legal documents, ensure that the clients have powers of attorney for health and for finances, which are two forms that should be required to collect when you're providing home care services so you know who the decision makers are, which again, I don't think...

as many home care companies have that as a part of their comprehensive assessments. And I think it's really important, especially when you're going after these high net worth private pay clients. And so they really understand the wishes, goals, and the needs of their clients and the family dynamics. And they're messy. so home care comes right in again as that expert when it comes to resources.

And they make, they also are great networkers. I've networked, I've co-collaborated, I haven't co-marketed, but I've presented with estate planning attorneys. I've had them come and present, I actually had one come and present to the national sales conference that we had with the key. So they can come and talk about their process and how you can help protect clients and families in your service delivery and process as well with Home Care.

Miriam Allred (01:00:12.278)
So, so good. So many opportunities with, again, just these less, which is why we're bringing this to light. There are these kind of less common referral partners that you have tapped into and build process with. And I think a lot of people hear this and can start here, but also it just spurs like ideas of, attorneys, you know, what does that translate into? Or here's our ICP. Here are the other people in our community that are touching our ICP and how do we go approach them and drive value?

back to what they're doing. I want to take you back to kind of your peak when you were in the business development seat. We just talked about all these different referral partners. I'm curious if you can recall kind of the breakdown for you personally, like where all of your business was coming from. Was it 50 % in the healthcare bucket and 50 % in the non-healthcare bucket? Were GCMs driving like 60 %? Like what was, when you were at your peak, what did your pipeline look like broken down by the referral?

sources if that makes sense.

Gabrielle Pumpian (01:01:12.145)
Yeah. So we had a very large high-end senior living community that was a large part of the business. So senior living, not necessarily a health care and acute care or post-acute care account, but a CCRC or a continuing care retirement community that had multiple services within the community, independent assisted memory care, and sometimes skilled or often skilled as well. So.

A few of those accounts became very dominant when it came to referrals because we would just be able to build upon the census that we had. I would intentionally have activity in those buildings on a weekly, monthly basis. But then I would say, know, and I would say when it comes to volume, you're not going to see a high volume from non-health care accounts. And that's okay, as long as what you do see

closes and becomes that ideal client with the long-term revenue. And I would just encourage owners and business developers, if you aren't super crystal clear on your ideal customer, you're not going to find them. And it took me a long time to really realize that. One of these fun activities I remember doing at Home Care Assistance with our operations leader was she developed like a persona. And I remember it was Caroline the daughter. And it was like,

Who is Caroline? And she's a retired executive, marketing executive. She lives in Malibu. Kind of her demographic. She's the only daughter. She has one brother who lives across the country and is not involved. She's making all the decisions. She's this, this, and this. And so we actually scoped out who the ideal customer is in order for us out in the field to better identify who we're going after.

And I think that that exercise is really powerful for, to keep the business developer focused on who they're going after. And again, if you get two 24 seven client referrals that start and stay on in a month, and that's all the business you get, that's way better than 10 two hour shifts or four hour shifts that don't stay on more than 30 days from a hospital. Right? So I, know, everybody's business is different. I think you can really make up volume.

Gabrielle Pumpian (01:03:35.379)
with quality when it comes. And that's, you find the quality for private pay often in these trusted advisor channels.

Miriam Allred (01:03:43.458)
Yeah, that was a really good reminder about.

lasering in on your ICP. I talk to agencies probably every week that say we're getting a lot of like this type of client, we're getting a lot of this type of hours or this type of business. And my mind always goes to that's who you're attracting. You know, it's your messaging, it's your marketing, it's the conversations that your business developers having out in the field. mean, those are the people you're, you know, they kind of are confused, like, I'm not sure why I'm getting all of these types of people. And I just think it's so backward, you haven't defined.

who your ICP is and your messaging and your marketing and your sales efforts are attracting those types of people, not who your ICP is. So it's just a really good reminder to laser in on that. And that is probably a huge driver of your successes. You were so clear on who your ICP was, therefore you were so clear on who your referral partners could be or should be that we're going to lead you back to that ICP.

Gabrielle Pumpian (01:04:38.997)
I was so clear that I could tell within the first 15 to 30 seconds of a conversation with a new lead whether or not this was going to be a potential client for ours. And I would not have a conversation for 30 minutes if I knew at the beginning that it wasn't going to be. I would have, I would listen and I would say, as much as we would love to serve you, I don't believe, you know, we're the best option because of these reasons. However, I have these two agencies that I would highly recommend that I would love to put you in touch with that.

could have give you a call later today.

It's being okay with saying no to the non-ideal because if you're saying yes to your non-ideal customer, you are going to create so much stress and wreak havoc on your internal team and on your salesperson and you as an owner and a leader. And so I think this exercise, if people don't do it, you should probably do it quarterly, you know, and really be able to hone in and then develop other personas. And you're like, wow, we've gotten three clients that all have this in common. We've never seen this before. We've never seen this diagnosis before.

served in this area before? What can we pull out of that to give to our recruiting team so that they can continue to hire the right people for this type of customer? So it's getting your whole team involved in that conversation as well. mean, who do your caregivers want to work with? Right? And how are you evaluating that? So there's a lot of fun, I think, that can be done with really digging into this ideal customer. And then you don't question why you're not growing.

Miriam Allred (01:06:09.91)
And you're not wasting time. was just thinking that I, you know, owners are so hung up on sales activity. What are our sales reps doing out in the field? But like you just said, if you know who your ICP is, you're not wasting time. You're not spending 30 minutes with a contact that you should be spending five minutes with because you know that they're not a right fit and you're walking away early rather than wasting time. So, so many good reminders and nuggets and what you just shared. A couple last, last questions here. This is kind of, again, generic and high level.

but you have been in this sales world, home care sales world for like you said, 17, almost 20 years and things have changed and evolved post pandemic technology. Like there's all these factors that play into this topic. I just wanted to give you a couple of minutes here towards the end, just to share any interesting observations or things that you're keeping the pulse on that you're still seeing just when it comes to the home care sales landscape.

Gabrielle Pumpian (01:06:45.93)
Yeah.

Gabrielle Pumpian (01:06:53.675)
Mm.

Gabrielle Pumpian (01:07:07.069)
Yeah, a lot. We are in an exciting time in home care. I feel like the progress and the momentum and the innovation we've seen in last few years, the technology, this is just the beginning of more to come. And I think it's great. And I think when you have people like you who create this platform to really understand and vet what's out there, it's really helpful because it can get overwhelming really fast. But at the end of the day,

It's not about selling hours or tangible services. In my experience, and especially towards the end of my days, is people want to know what the outcome is going to be. Is my mom going to be okay? How am I going to get my mom to accept care? Well, let's come up with some outcomes that we want to see, and then let's measure those for your mom. We also have to be really flexible. So baby boomers and millennials who are the decision makers for care or the ones receiving the care,

They have very different expectations than the 90-year-old, what is it, the silent generation had. They're willing to speak up, they're willing to do their research, they're not just taking an order for someone, they have a lot of choice. And so all of those things are really important. And so how are you creating flexibility? How are you meeting those needs? And how are you asking and finding out what it is they want? I think...

Technology is something that home care owners and agencies are gonna have to lean into, not only to streamline efficiency in their operations, but really on the client-facing side. I told you earlier, I met with a tech company that's really exciting to me to help solve the problem of reducing the fear of invasiveness and privacy while also providing monitoring, updating, information, real-time information to...

promote safety in the home and really help age in place. And like, what a wonderful, know, ancillary service for a home care agency to provide or include as a part of their service and give the family who lives in New York and their mom is in California, the peace of mind that they can tap in or say hello or get a reading on a blood pressure or something from afar. So I think that those are some of the exciting upcoming things. And with private pay,

Gabrielle Pumpian (01:09:23.017)
people will pay for that. So don't shy away for upping your rate for including these services or coming up with a way that you can actually sell this and charge what you need to charge to run your agency the way and grow it the way that you want to grow it. And people understand that. If they're seeing value, they're going to pay for it. And reiterating the message that customers, if you're going to spend money on anything, spend it on your care and yourself. And like,

for the value, right? Not just, so.

Miriam Allred (01:09:56.834)
So good. So, so good. I could just keep listening. Gabi, you're incredible. This is why I come to you for these sales topics. And I just want everyone that's listening to this, a lot of agencies struggle with this sales where a lot of owners come from various business backgrounds, different industries. And this, there's always this kind of hang up with this business development function in home care businesses. And you have just like knocked it out of the park in your own experience. And now here you are kind of giving back this knowledge to other owners and operators. And so.

I just put the plug in if anyone is struggling with this function, like Gabi is a resource to you and to your team to build out these processes. Think through these tactics, think through these referral partners. Who is your ICP and how do we go out and find new unique partners that can drive business back to your ICP? So I just think the world of you and you're so knowledgeable in this area. You are... Yeah, absolutely.

Gabrielle Pumpian (01:10:49.675)
Can I offer one more tip, just a very common challenge and something that salespeople here, business developers, is the financial piece, right? Nobody likes to talk about finances. Nobody likes to talk about how expensive this is. People get sticker shock when you quote them their rate. They're like, my God, I didn't know it was gonna be that much. If you as a business developer or your team who's doing the assessment and receiving that confrontation,

If you don't have a value-based answer to give because you don't know your team well enough, you don't know the service that your caregivers are delivering enough, you can't pull examples of value from other customer experiences.

You are doing yourself a disservice and you're not going to sign people up. I highly encourage people to spend time understanding the clients that they're already serving and really leveraging those stories to overcome objectives, that's the word, with new customers. Because people don't know. They just hear a price. But if someone quoted me a price,

and then explain to me, and I understand the value because it really serves what I need and that would be a good use of my money, even though it feels really expensive, I'm probably gonna go for it, or at least I'm gonna try, right? And so it's really important to have a good comeback, a good story to tell, an experience that one of your customers has had to show the value of that cost and not get stuck with the financial objection piece.

Miriam Allred (01:12:20.75)
You just took me back to the minimal sales training that I've had. It's like objection handling. You have to become a master at objection handling and you did that. And it's oftentimes the price and the finances, but that shouldn't surprise you as a business development rep. It's like, they said that I know exact, I have this memorized. I know exactly what I'm going to say to this to come back with a story that just removes that objection.

Gabrielle Pumpian (01:12:45.512)
Absolutely.

Miriam Allred (01:12:46.722)
Gabi, last thing, you are starting a new venture. Give us a teaser of what you're up to now.

Gabrielle Pumpian (01:12:54.579)
Yes. So I love this topic. I love this field. I am so grateful for the mentorship I've had and the success that I've had and impact mostly that I've had in my community. now, you know, greatly meeting you and your podcast and networking with people around the country. I love this industry and I don't want to leave it, but I'm trying to find my right fit place. And with all this experience, 15 years of being boots on the ground and working with agencies from

startup private pay through big national corporations. I've got a lot of experience and know testimony to give to what I believe works and and how to encourage more people like me to get out there and do it and grow and be successful and help more people and hire more caregivers and create sustainability in this care economy that is scary. There's a lot going on. So I'm hoping to do that with more people across the country in the form of a business development consultant.

Yes, I'm developing my own consultancy. I'm really looking forward to working with more owners who want to grow their private pay and do it in a sustainable, lasting way coming from relationship building and not brochures.

Miriam Allred (01:14:11.776)
Amazing. And it's called...

Gabrielle Pumpian (01:14:14.173)
It's called Trail Angel Partners, which does not have the word care in it. But Trail Angel, it's a metaphor for when my husband and I hiked the Pacific Crest Trail, which was a 2,600 mile, five month journey in the wilderness from Mexico to Canada. Along the way, we were so graciously surprised by the support and the love that perfect strangers would come and support hikers, whether it was

putting out a chair with a cooler of ice water in the middle of the desert, giving us a ride into town, letting us shower in their outdoor shower and pitch a tent in their yard and feed us meals. Trail Angels really became an essential part of our journey to reach our goal. And so I hope to metaphorically be a Trail Angel when it comes to business development guidance for this industry.

Miriam Allred (01:15:04.352)
I love it so, so, so much. And it's early days. If you want to learn more or connect with Gabi again, she's an open book and she's so responsive, which is one of the things that I personally love most is you can reach out to her on LinkedIn. We'll drop her email also in the show notes so you can connect with her directly. And again, if sales is your struggle, if you have questions or concerns,

Gabrielle Pumpian (01:15:08.115)
early days.

Miriam Allred (01:15:29.004)
or need help flushing out strategies and tactics, I really believe that Gabi is the one for you. So Gabi, thanks for joining me in the lab. Always a pleasure for me. And I look forward to just continuing to follow your journey and see what else you can accomplish.

Gabrielle Pumpian (01:15:44.255)
Thank you, Miriam. It's been so fun.